Advice on dangerous over taking situation

[Custom24]

KitKat - welcome. Don't worry too much about "courses" in this instance. Your options are so limited that there's not much it will teach you

I respectfully suggest that the opportunity to practice steer and avoid as well as heavy braking exercises may help some people with the confidence to make use of the car's capabilities in an emergency. I was able to avoid a head on by steering into a farm entrance and back out again at 60 mph a few years ago. I was very lucky, but the exercises I've done since have made me realise how nimble the car can be when required.

I've also sat with some drivers who are extremely reluctant to use harsh braking and have never engaged ABS.

Yup. Agreed, although these things rarely form part of traditional AD tuition. Personally I don't try and teach people to steer into farm gates at speed - the consequences if it went wrong might cost more than RoSPA's insurance could stand As regards exercises, I've done some in a skid car, but not sure if I'd remember all of it in extremis.

I know some tutors do teach heavy braking and emergency stops - I never have, although I can see a potential benefit. I think most people, when faced with a real emergency, can probably brake hard enough to bend a pedal, even if they wouldn't do it in an artificially-induced situation.

PS where have you been all this time?

Ah, yes I see what you mean. Standard AD courses don't cover this. When I was an observer, I used to do the emergency stop and measure the distance exercise, although I was probably on shaky ground with the latter bit.

I have been around, just not posting as much, apart from to challenge ADUK members bad-mouthing cyclists

[waremark]

I once had a comparable experience. I was on a country road generally wide enough for two to pass without difficulty and approaching a shallow but blind left bend at about 60. There was a lorry coming towards me in the middle of the road. I applied emergency braking, with the ABS activated, and came to a halt tucked into the nearside. The lorry was sliding towards me with its wheels locked up. Happily it stopped just in time.

After stopping, I was the proverbial rabbit stuck in the headlights, just watching the lorry slide towards me. Afterwards, I thought that I should have started to reverse. There might have been time to make a difference. I didnt think about mounting the verge. No idea now whether that would have been a helpful option.

This was about 18 years ago. Such incidents stick in the mind.

[7db]

This was about 18 years ago. Such incidents stick in the mind.

Thank-you for sharing. I find such tales help incidents stick in others' minds, too. Learn from your mistakes. Cheaper to learn from others' mistakes.

[triquet]

I once had a comparable experience. I was on a country road generally wide enough for two to pass without difficulty and approaching a shallow but blind left bend at about 60. There was a lorry coming towards me in the middle of the road. I applied emergency braking, with the ABS activated, and came to a halt tucked into the nearside. The lorry was sliding towards me with its wheels locked up. Happily it stopped just in time.

After stopping, I was the proverbial rabbit stuck in the headlights, just watching the lorry slide towards me. Afterwards, I thought that I should have started to reverse. There might have been time to make a difference. I didnt think about mounting the verge. No idea now whether that would have been a helpful option.

This was about 18 years ago. Such incidents stick in the mind.

Interesting. On a "country road generally wide enough for two to pass without difficulty" lorries will very often drive bang down the middle until they see something coming and may (repeat may) tuck in to the side. Being a blind bend, I wonder if he could see you before you saw him (being higher)? This sort of thing does, as you rightly say, stick in the mind. I trust you managed to find a passing place shortly afterwards to adjust your underwear

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Thread now split. Discussion on the "golden rule" is here

[Pontoneer]

If you haven't been in this situation, don't get over-analytical or theoretical. If it happens the only realistic thing to do is to brake hard and pray. If you have ABS, sure, look for a escape route. But to do anything before braking is to eat into valuable reaction time. The other driver will be a state of utter panic as he will also know he's screwed up and may act completely randomly.

I have had the misfortune of being in exactly that situation , and it resulted in a very bad crash .

This was back in 1978 , when I had not long done my police driving courses , IAM and League of Safe Drivers , passed at Grade 1 , so all quite fresh in my mind . It was a Thursday evening , I had not long finished my day release course at college and was heading home , a journey of about 10 miles mostly on NSL single carriageway road . It was getting dark and the weather was dry with good visibility .

As I was approaching a moderate right hand bend at around 50mph , I could see over the top of the hedgerow that there was an artic coming the other way - this in itself was no cause for concern as it was a typical A road , wide enough for us to pass safely , and my speed was fine for the bend , having just rounded a similar bend moments earlier .

The artic reached the apex of the bend while I was still perhaps 100 yds away - THEN THE CAR OVERTAKING THE ARTIC CAME INTO VIEW . Now , this was before the days of ABS , and before wearing of seat belts was compulsory . I was fortunate to be in my dad's Mercedes 220/8 , quite a safe car by the standards of the day .

Thankfully , I had the presence of mind to brake hard on the Tarmac whilst still in a straight line , mindful not to lock up and lose control , keeping as far left as possible , and trying to leave the other car as much space as possible .

Despite that , and with only a few seconds to react , I was unable to stop before the other car hit me head on . To this day , I can still see the other car approach , completely out of control , the driver with his arms crossed in front of his face . My windscreen ( toughened glass back then ) shattered outwards into thousands of pieces , there was a crash , I kept hold of the wheel and tried to control the car , but still ended up on the wrong side of the road , behind the truck , which had stopped .

My car had been struck head-on , with about a 40% overlap of the frontal area on the drivers side , the damage tapering from the radiator grille to the A pillar . Amazingly , my engine was still running and I turned it off ; I unbuckled my seat belt , and was glad I had secured it tightly ( pre inertia reels ) , then found that the door opened and I was able to step out unhurt .

That one incident has been the reason for my lifelong loyalty to Mercedes-Benz and an aversion to small cars of any kind .

The other driver was not so fortunate . The Ford Capri he was in flew over the hedgerow behind me and landed in the field , the entire car bent into a sort of banana shape . Along with the truck driver , I ran down into the field to find the driver still in the car , motionless . We tried to open the door but the door skin came away . Some passers by came and someone went to phone the emergency services ( no mobiles back then )

Eventually , the guy was removed from the car and taken away in an ambulance with two broken legs , a broken arm and other injuries . I escaped unhurt apart from getting something in my eye .

I photographed the scene before any of the cars were removed . Later we discovered the Capri was the property of the drivers step father , he had no licence , no insurance and we learned that the owner reported the vehicle stolen . There were comments at the crash scene that the driver smelled of drink too .

Fortunately , I had the truck driver's witness statement , and the police report , which absolved me of any blame , and my dad's comprehensive insurance paid out for the car . The other driver faced a number of charges , and was ordered to pay the damages back to our insurers at something like £1 a week . We heard that he disappeared and defaulted on this .

That , thankfully , has been my one and only serious crash in my driving career ; I've had three minor 'bumps' over the years - once being 'clipped' from behind on a roundabout by a driver who turned out to be drunk and was arrested on the scene , and twice being rear ended whilst stopped at junctions .

I like to think that skill and training played a part in my favourable outcome , but I also think that instinct and quick reactions ( I was about 20 at the time ) were a factor too .

I have often thought whether I could have done more to anticipate the crash , but the truck and the hedgerows obscured all sight of the other car , until it came directly into view , and although it was getting dark , it was not dark enough to see light from his headlamps around the corner either . It was properly dark by the time everything was cleared up , but not at the 5:30 or so the crash would have taken place .

I think I would say to most people that , unless you can see something coming , you probably won't have time to think about it , and just have to rely on your instincts - which will probably be right .

[triquet]

Thank you for a very sobering story. I think we can all learn something from this ....

[The Thinker]

Has anyone mentioned consider the speed you approach these bends at. This would possible be the main preventative measure.

[superplum]

Has anyone mentioned consider the speed you approach these bends at. This would possible be the main preventative measure.

I think that this is the point where we all start to mention limit points and being able to stop on your own side of........! Two very good "rules" that are worth their weight in "Gold" (pun intended) when used correctly, but of no value whatsoever when recalling past experiences.

[Pontoneer]

It is indeed all very well talking about limit points , being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear , extending your view around bends , and being able to remain on the correct side of the road .

However , in some cases , such as the one I outlined above , despite the fact that I kept well over to the left , and would have stopped before the point the oncoming car was when I first saw him , it has to be remembered that he was coming towards me at 50 or 60 mph too and the other driver just panicked when he saw me - I think he just let go of the wheel ( I remember seeing the arms crossed across his face just before impact ) and I don't know whether he braked at all .

There may be something to be said for being able to stop in half the distance you can see to be clear , assuming that an oncoming driver would have to do the same , but in some cases , such as the one I described above , it really is just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time - even if I had stopped on a sixpence when I first saw that oncoming car , I think it is likely he would have still hit me .

I remember my father telling me about a crash he had years earlier , on a narrow road in the highlands he rounded a bend to see an oncoming speeding car - he stopped safely but the other car didn't even slow and the resulting crash wrote off both vehicles .

It just goes to show that , no matter that you may always drive correctly yourself , you may sometimes still be caught out by the poor driving of others .

[The Thinker]

While limit points were part of my meaning they were not the limit of the point on speed.

Would having a second or two longer to think allow a better escape route, more chance for driver and other motorist to react to slow to reduce the impact effect.

Advanced driving should also be about damage limitation in addition to avoiding it (although avoidance should be the first option).

[Pontoneer]

I guess we could always say 'what if' , and that by going a little slower we would have that little bit more time to think and react to something .

However , four desirable principles of Advanced Driving , back when I did my training , were to drive safely , smoothly , progressively and well .

While we could all slow almost to the point of stopping every time we came to a bend we could not see round , and it might be safer in one sense ( that we would be less likely to be unable to stop before hitting something ) , it would be impractical to slow unrealistically for every bend and there would perhaps be a new danger of being hit from behind by another driver who either did not expect us to slow so much , or arrived at high speed and was too late to react .

Clearly , the basic principles apply to much more than bends , but we all strike a balance between caution and progress .

[Ancient]

I guess we could always say 'what if' , and that by going a little slower we would have that little bit more time to think and react to something .

However , four desirable principles of Advanced Driving , back when I did my training , were to drive safely , smoothly , progressively and well .

While we could all slow almost to the point of stopping every time we came to a bend we could not see round , and it might be safer in one sense ( that we would be less likely to be unable to stop before hitting something ) , it would be impractical to slow unrealistically for every bend and there would perhaps be a new danger of being hit from behind by another driver who either did not expect us to slow so much , or arrived at high speed and was too late to react .

Clearly , the basic principles apply to much more than bends , but we all strike a balance between caution and progress .

Failing to slow enough so that you can stop before hitting something is not progressive driving, it is trusting blindly to luck. If that really is the way you drive, one day the luck is likely to change and you will hit something or someone: You are licenced to be in control of a potentially deadly machine; the fact that it can go faster around blind corners and usually get away with it is not an excuse to take risks with other people's lives.

[jcochrane]

I guess we could always say 'what if' , and that by going a little slower we would have that little bit more time to think and react to something .

However , four desirable principles of Advanced Driving , back when I did my training , were to drive safely , smoothly , progressively and well .

While we could all slow almost to the point of stopping every time we came to a bend we could not see round , and it might be safer in one sense ( that we would be less likely to be unable to stop before hitting something ) , it would be impractical to slow unrealistically for every bend and there would perhaps be a new danger of being hit from behind by another driver who either did not expect us to slow so much , or arrived at high speed and was too late to react .

Clearly , the basic principles apply to much more than bends , but we all strike a balance between caution and progress .

I may be slightly miss reading you but to slow down almost to a stop I would say is not unrealistic but essential if required to match the limit point. Where I think progressive comes in is that as the limit point improves/extends acceleration is applied to accurately match its rate of change. One aspect I admire in the best drivers and try to aspire to has been this ability to have an excellent and extensive display of "light and shade" in the drive that swiftly and smoothly changes pace to always match the limit point for complete safety. Resulting in a seamless flow and rhythm that I enjoy and admire in their drives.

[MGF]

I think he is referring to the possibility of oncoming traffic on his side of the road which obviously requires more than being able to stop before the limit point.