Young Driver (split from overtaking thread)

[TheInsanity1234]

What I do not like (or absolutely detest) are situations like on the A66 east of Keswick, and the recently up-graded A75 near Newton Stewart, where solid white lines prevent any overtaking, even when there is no opposing traffic. I met that situation in April this year, following a tractor on the A75, and simply had to follow it for ages: and we were the only two vehicles on that section of road. It is quite barmy.

It's probably been designed by a BRAKE supporter...they are against overtaking on rural roads and want legislation for "...a ban on overtaking free-moving traffic, except on multi-lane roads."

Brake's 'Target Zero' mission statement - http://www.brake.org.uk/component/content/article/10-whats-happening/take-action/252-zero

"You can't do this, we must be communist, and be tree-huggers" finger wagging load of codswallop.

If I purchase a car, and pay the rather considerable sum to insure it, tax it, maintain it, etc for the privilege of owning the car, then I should be allowed to do what I wish with it, and if that means using it to carry my friends, then I should be able to do so.

The other thing is, there are a lot of calls for the driving test to be made harder so that only the good drivers can pass it.

Well, would it be such a good idea if we force anyone who supports the proposal to retake the test, because they will have taken the test back when it was easy to pass. Therefore, they may not be up to the standards they want on the roads, so they should be removed in the interests of safety.

Wonder how much support the proposals would have.

[martine]

[If I purchase a car, and pay the rather considerable sum to insure it, tax it, maintain it, etc for the privilege of owning the car, then I should be allowed to do what I wish with it, and if that means using it to carry my friends, then I should be able to do so.

The other thing is, there are a lot of calls for the driving test to be made harder so that only the good drivers can pass it.

Well, would it be such a good idea if we force anyone who supports the proposal to retake the test, because they will have taken the test back when it was easy to pass. Therefore, they may not be up to the standards they want on the roads, so they should be removed in the interests of safety.

Wonder how much support the proposals would have.

I sympathise but what would you propose to help reduce the high young driver KSI's? (if you respond I will split this thread as it's off-topic)

[TheInsanity1234]

[If I purchase a car, and pay the rather considerable sum to insure it, tax it, maintain it, etc for the privilege of owning the car, then I should be allowed to do what I wish with it, and if that means using it to carry my friends, then I should be able to do so.

The other thing is, there are a lot of calls for the driving test to be made harder so that only the good drivers can pass it.

Well, would it be such a good idea if we force anyone who supports the proposal to retake the test, because they will have taken the test back when it was easy to pass. Therefore, they may not be up to the standards they want on the roads, so they should be removed in the interests of safety.

Wonder how much support the proposals would have.

I sympathise but what would you propose to help reduce the high young driver KSI's? (if you respond I will split this thread as it's off-topic)

Instead of making the test harder, how about improving the quality of the damn education?

It's like school, effectively. You can make the tests harder, to weed out the more stupid ones, but you're better off giving the pupils a better education because then the not-quite-so-bright, yet ambitious students can have more of a chance of doing what they want.

I would rather there be a graduated education system, where you have old airfields or something and you mark out a road system on them, and get students to learn how to control a car safely and press good habits into them without the distraction of other traffic. At the end of this stage, there is to be a test to make sure you can drive a car satisfactorily and do manoeuvres well etc.

If you pass, you will be granted a provisional to allow you out on to the roads, where you then learn how to interact with other road users and learn the necessary skills to judge gaps etc.

This would be better because the students will understand the importance of being able to operate the controls well (otherwise, why would you bother testing these skills?).
They then learn how having good skills in driving a car is beneficial when coping with every day driving.

A few short lectures (no more than 10-15 minutes max each) on the dangers of driving too fast, blah blah blah (to satisfy the likes of BRAKE)

Another practical test, but this time, set on the public roads to see how the student copes with pressure from other road users etc etc.

It's literally that simple.

[martine]

I'm all for driver education (obviously) but your idea concentrates on the physical handling of the controls...I don't believe that is the main problem with many young drivers who come to grief. Their downfall in my view, is their attitude...the dangerous combination of over-confidence and under-skill and hormones.

The Graduated Driver Licensing (GDL) proposal focusses on the areas of driving that seem to have particularly high-risk for young drivers: night-time, passengers, alcohol. It has worked in many other countries and we already have GDL for bikers and lorry drivers.

I would like to see road safety as part of the national curriculum from KS1 and from age 16, intermediate tests (theory, driving and psychometric) to enable any new drivers (not just young) to remove the restrictions. I'd also like to see a regular driving assessment for all drivers - perhaps every 10 years when their photocard is due for renewal - as a start.

[TheInsanity1234]

That's fair enough.

I was just trying to do a simple example, but effectively a graduated system would be best, but I wouldn't want any time restrictions, like, you have to be 20 before you can obtain a full license.

I would rather have a graduated system, but not have any time frame on it, so people can progress through at a rate they feel comfortable with.

[fungus]

Ideally I would like to see a system like The Under Seventeens Car Club where children are started at the age of eleven or as soon as they can reach the pedals, working up through the skills levels. This would definately improve attitude among young drivers, as you will catch young people at an age where they would not be influenced by older friend who already drive.

[Rick101]

There is a place near me (Tockwith Training) near York that offers off road lessons for 13 yr olds iirc.

More training, more education.

Don't get me started on Brake, id like to break their bloody necks.

[martine]

Don't get me started on Brake, id like to break their bloody necks.

Steady Rick!

They are well meaning but wrong in their emphasis on speed, in my view. They started as a support group for those effected by RTCs and who could argue with that? They have since expanded to be a campaigning group for road safety in general but have some pretty extreme views (by many people's standards).

They have a very effective PR dept. though and punch well above their weight. According to the charities commission in 2012 they had an income of £1m, 20 employees and 600 volunteers against the IAM's £6m, 75 employees and 3000 volunteers.

[Grahar]

Brake's proposals are frighteningly Orwellian. In fact the outcome of trying to enforce some of the measures is likely to be repression.

Like all militant organisations they end up harming the people they pretend they are trying to protect. They are quite happy to trample all over the freedoms and liberties of the numerous decent people who drive cars (and those who drive cars decently) for the sake of the few who spoil it.

Ah, I hear you say 'surely you wouldn't be against this law'...
Like all good dictatorships it is not always the laws themselves but the implications of how they could be enforced that are so repressive.

If our policing and justice system wasn't so feeble and criminals and would-be law breakers were actually afraid (i.e. were highly likely to be prosecuted and punished accordingly) they would be more likely be deterred from committing some of these motoring offences. Deterrent is the best from of prevention.

It is interesting that driver training and policing feature in so little detail in comparison with all the laws and restrictions Brake would like to see in place. These are the two areas that would improve the standard of driving the most.

[superplum]

It's like school, effectively. You can make the tests harder, to weed out the more stupid ones, but you're better off giving the pupils a better education because then the not-quite-so-bright, yet ambitious students can have more of a chance of doing what they want.

I would rather there be a graduated education system, where you have old airfields or something and you mark out a road system on them, and get students to learn how to control a car safely and press good habits into them without the distraction of other traffic. At the end of this stage, there is to be a test to make sure you can drive a car satisfactorily and do manoeuvres well etc.

If you pass, you will be granted a provisional to allow you out on to the roads, where you then learn how to interact with other road users and learn the necessary skills to judge gaps etc.

This would be better because the students will understand the importance of being able to operate the controls well (otherwise, why would you bother testing these skills?).
They then learn how having good skills in driving a car is beneficial when coping with every day driving.

A few short lectures (no more than 10-15 minutes max each) on the dangers of driving too fast, blah blah blah (to satisfy the likes of BRAKE)

Another practical test, but this time, set on the public roads to see how the student copes with pressure from other road users etc etc.

It's literally that simple.

No, its not that simple! You are missing a fundamental point regarding training and/or education. Qualifications (at any level) only indicate the level of your learning; qualifications do not indicate competence levels. Competence needs to be demonstrated hence an example would be the advanced tests. Eg the driving test demonstrates that you can operate a vehicle to the basic standard required by the DVSA. Learning to drive "properly" takes time to gain the experience. Despite the negative comments re the insurance industry, I'm pretty sure that they know their facts and figures regarding young drivers.

[waremark]

It's like school, effectively. You can make the tests harder, to weed out the more stupid ones, but you're better off giving the pupils a better education because then the not-quite-so-bright, yet ambitious students can have more of a chance of doing what they want.

I would rather there be a graduated education system, where you have old airfields or something and you mark out a road system on them, and get students to learn how to control a car safely and press good habits into them without the distraction of other traffic. At the end of this stage, there is to be a test to make sure you can drive a car satisfactorily and do manoeuvres well etc.

If you pass, you will be granted a provisional to allow you out on to the roads, where you then learn how to interact with other road users and learn the necessary skills to judge gaps etc.

This would be better because the students will understand the importance of being able to operate the controls well (otherwise, why would you bother testing these skills?).
They then learn how having good skills in driving a car is beneficial when coping with every day driving.

A few short lectures (no more than 10-15 minutes max each) on the dangers of driving too fast, blah blah blah (to satisfy the likes of BRAKE)

Another practical test, but this time, set on the public roads to see how the student copes with pressure from other road users etc etc.

It's literally that simple.

No, its not that simple! You are missing a fundamental point regarding training and/or education. Qualifications (at any level) only indicate the level of your learning; qualifications do not indicate competence levels. Competence needs to be demonstrated hence an example would be the advanced tests. Eg the driving test demonstrates that you can operate a vehicle to the basic standard required by the DVSA. Learning to drive "properly" takes time to gain the experience. Despite the negative comments re the insurance industry, I'm pretty sure that they know their facts and figures regarding young drivers.

Insanity is making suggestions about how to improve the training and education. I agree with him about introducing training prior to practising in traffic. I disagree with him about two aspects. He implies that car control skills are a particularly important aspect of learning to drive, whereas I think they are necessary but secondary if not tertiary (I would put first observation, anticipation and planning with a view to safe hazard management). He also suggests that lectures on the dangers of driving fast would be to satisfy Brake. It is fundamental to the improvement of road safety to get drivers to choose to drive safely, and it is an aspect on which I believe there is a lot of scope for improvement.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Mark, there's a reason the GDE matrix progresses through the levels it does. You have to be able to at least accomplish some of level 1 (moving off and stopping) before you can start to be involved with level 2 (how other road users affect you in so doing). There's a bit of chicken and egg in this, but basically, you have to learn to control the vehicle first. If you do that in a safe environment away from other road users, this allows some of that skill to be embedded so that when the other road users are thrown into the mix, you have some mental capacity for dealing with them that isn't all given up to how to steer and change gear.

Of course all levels are important, and to some extent can be taught separately, but the acid test is to be in control of a moving vehicle and still remember all the other stuff. It helps if you know the basics of control first.

[martine]

...you have some mental capacity for dealing with them that isn't all given up to how to steer and change gear.

Sometimes I wonder if I've progressed from level 1.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

We had a debate on another forum a while back which led me to wonder if some of us (meaning me) spend too much time thinking about the mechanical stuff (trying to make it as perfect as possible) to the detriment of our information processing from outside the vehicle. I sort of made a conscious decision to try and redress the balance a bit, and allow myself to do more of the mechanical stuff unconsciously in order to leave more bandwidth for being safe. I'm not sure if I'm succeeding, yet.