ADUK Archive

Hi All,
As requested I'm here to tell you how the day went. By the end of it I was well and truly knack erred
Chris is a lovely guy, very good at explaining and never impatient. I was with him for the best part of 7 hours. He took me round some fantastic roads around Slough/ Windsor area and the main focus was on vision and then cornering/limit point etc. Very much slow in and power out - I was much too fast in as in my day to day life I guess I have always been in the mindset of ' get through a bend as fast as is safe to do it'. Cornering and bends is all about being able to stop in the distance you can see - that still stands - I think he made me realise that my cornering has been a bit 'on a wing and a prayer' I was better behaved in the afternoon - I had listened to him thankfully - because at one point I was driving round a sharp bend on a narrow road at a much slower pace for me than I have been doing - and there in front of me was a big agricultural tanker taking up at least 3/5 of the width. It was a salutary learn for me. I was also too quick coming up to roundabouts - he wants a much slower approach so that you can find your space and just flow into it without stopping if at all possible. Apparently the police on a rapid response call will be very fast up to and out of a roundabout/corner but the bit while they are in it/ on it is just as slow as he wanted me to be.
Generally speaking he was happy with my driving, just need to consolidate it all now. None of my ROSPA tutors have gone through this sort of thing with me. I feel a bit embarrassed because I can hear you all saying ' Well that's how I drive all the time' (smooth and flowing). Anyway - once I've pressed send it'll be too late then
I really enjoyed the day but it was very hard work. Now you can start throwing water cushions at me

No water cushions from me It read like you had a great day!

I've found days like this to be fantastic fun - a lot to learn, but very satisfying - whenever I've been out with a police Class 1. You're lucky to have had time with Chris Gilbert.

I might throw a water cushion at your RoSPA tutor, however, for missing you being too fast on the approach to bends and roundabouts.

Zeb (RoSPA biker, steeling myself for 3-yearly retest coming up!)

Hi Nicola,

Glad you enjoyed your day out with Chris Gilbert. The comments you made about slow in, power out, and the approach to roundabouts is surely something that your RoSPA tutor should be encouraging, and they should at least be picking up that your approach speeds are too high.
The fact of the matter is that most drivers are too fast into hazardous situations, and are not ready to power out. This can sometimes work in your favour if you are following one such driver and wish to overtake them, and, because they are still loosing speed in the bend you are now gaining on them while they are sorting themselves out, and can often pass them as the view opens up coming off the bend.

Hi Nicola, a quick question if i may please. Under Chris's instruction how much slower where you entering the bends and roundabouts from your normal speed?

Albie wrote:Hi Nicola, a quick question if i may please. Under Chris's instruction how much slower where you entering the bends and roundabouts from your normal speed?

Hi Albie, until yesterday I would approach a roundabout at whatever speed depending on which road I had been on - the style was always .... Lose speed at the last possible moment, brake (regardless) , give way (regardless) then move onto the roundabout when clear. So - much too unplanned - just a habit that I've always had. To be honest - I haven't done a roundabout on my ROSPA runs for months - apart from one just outside the hotel where we meet and I was already driving slowly at that point so nothing was ever mentioned. I went out to practice today and what I learnt yesterday makes so much more sense. Chris wanted foot off the gas completely for example at the beginning of the rumble strips on a 60 mph road, let the car slow down on its own ( so hard for me to keep my foot off the brake pedal pedal), at the same time watching all the traffic so that you've worked out when you are going to get your go and covering the brake if it's likely that you're going to have to stop or braking really gently but either way aiming if possible to get onto the roundabout without actually stopping the car and preferably not braking at all. It's obvious now. So silly to be ruled by a lifetime of habits. So - I'm now arriving at the give way line with hardly any speed instead of braking all the way to the line. Chris says it should be snails pace and you should retard even that if there are cars still front so that if possible you can still be just about moving when you go onto the roundabout ready to pick up speed when you exit. I have a lot to learn don't i?

Thanks for your reply Nicola, its most enlightening. I have been driving for years but old habits are very hard to break. What i do find quite satisfying now is slowing down more for bends knowing i will be able to stop if needs must rather than just powering into a bend and hoping its going to be all clear on the other side!

Once again thanks for your reply!

Nicola wrote: So - I'm now arriving at the give way line with hardly any speed instead of braking all the way to the line. Chris says it should be snails pace and you should retard even that if there are cars still front so that if possible you can still be just about moving when you go onto the roundabout ready to pick up speed when you exit. I have a lot to learn don't i?

And you're able to take gaps that would not be open to you if you had to stop. Use the same technique on traffic lights as well if possible.

fungus wrote: And you're able to take gaps that would not be open to you if you had to stop. Use the same technique on traffic lights as well if possible.

Yes Nigel - that reminded me that Chris suggested treating every give way point as you would a red traffic light.
Having been talking about this all week-end (poor family!) we were wandering down the very quiet road near our house yesterday evening and along comes a Ford Fiesta reverberating with loud music The driver was doing about 35mph (30 limit) and continued to do so until he got to the give way point at the end and proceeded to do an emergency stop kicking up gravel and dust all over the place. Hence the conversation started again

Nicola wrote:

fungus wrote: And you're able to take gaps that would not be open to you if you had to stop. Use the same technique on traffic lights as well if possible.

Yes Nigel - that reminded me that Chris suggested treating every give way point as you would a red traffic light.
Having been talking about this all week-end (poor family!) we were wandering down the very quiet road near our house yesterday evening and along comes a Ford Fiesta reverberating with loud music The driver was doing about 35mph (30 limit) and continued to do so until he got to the give way point at the end and proceeded to do an emergency stop kicking up gravel and dust all over the place. Hence the conversation started again

I don't drive particularly to be economical on fuel as I prioritise for safety but I refuelled yesterday evening and reset the car's computer. On this mornings drive into Westminster central London from the Surrey/Kent borders I hung back from roundabouts and traffic lights as I would normally, to avoid stopping completely if possible, but having reset the onboard computer was able to establish my fuel consumption for the journey at just under 62 mpg!

Nicola wrote:

Albie wrote:Hi Nicola, a quick question if i may please. Under Chris's instruction how much slower where you entering the bends and roundabouts from your normal speed?

Hi Albie, until yesterday I would approach a roundabout at whatever speed depending on which road I had been on - the style was always .... Lose speed at the last possible moment, brake (regardless) , give way (regardless) then move onto the roundabout when clear. So - much too unplanned - just a habit that I've always had. To be honest - I haven't done a roundabout on my ROSPA runs for months - apart from one just outside the hotel where we meet and I was already driving slowly at that point so nothing was ever mentioned. I went out to practice today and what I learnt yesterday makes so much more sense. Chris wanted foot off the gas completely for example at the beginning of the rumble strips on a 60 mph road, let the car slow down on its own ( so hard for me to keep my foot off the brake pedal pedal), at the same time watching all the traffic so that you've worked out when you are going to get your go and covering the brake if it's likely that you're going to have to stop or braking really gently but either way aiming if possible to get onto the roundabout without actually stopping the car and preferably not braking at all. It's obvious now. So silly to be ruled by a lifetime of habits. So - I'm now arriving at the give way line with hardly any speed instead of braking all the way to the line. Chris says it should be snails pace and you should retard even that if there are cars still front so that if possible you can still be just about moving when you go onto the roundabout ready to pick up speed when you exit. I have a lot to learn don't i?

Very envious of your experience. But ... I can't help thinking that you have been let down by your tutor if all the "arrive to go" / "be a moving target rather than a sitting duck" stuff was missing from your toolkit.

All sounds like great fun but remember there's always more than one way to skin a cat. Don't get into the mindset that "brakes are bad". Brakes can be your friend too. The "planning to stop, looking to go" mantra is always a good thing to be working to, there's more than one way of achieving it.

Agree with others that this should have been part of your RoSPA tuition. Perhaps the tutor didn't see a problem when you did roundabouts and didn't emphasise it enough, therefore.

Hi, Nicola,

As a fellow track day enthusiast (see my intro post) I think you and I have made the same error in reverse. What you describe doing at roundabouts and other hazards sounds remarkably like what you've probably been taught to do on track, i.e. rush up to a corner/roundabout/hazard, brake firmly at the last possible moment, select gear, negotiate hazard. The point about road driving is that the same steps may be applied, but differently. The fact that road driving and track driving techniques are different was brought home to me when I first started driving a mid-engined competition car on the track. I immediately complained to my instructor that the car understeered like a pig and I couldn't get it to turn in. He pointed out that I was doing what I'd been trained to do on the road, following Roadcraft principles, and was braking in a straight line, then coming off the brakes and turning in on a balanced throttle. ON the track this was a mistake. What I needed to do was to learn trail braking. When I learned this I found I could brake much later and the car (Ferrari 355 Challenge) could be steered as much on the throttle as with the steering, simply by dint of weight transfer.

The point of my incoherent ramblings is that there's a whole range of driving techniques out there. The more techniques you have the better. HPC members seem to refer to them as "tools in the box". It's essential, of course, to know which ones it is appropriate to use where. AS I hope I've managed to convey above, some track techniques are not appropriate on the road and vice-versa. I was re-reading Tom Wisdom's 'High Performance Driving for You' and John MIles' 'Expert Driving the Police Way' last week. They both reminded me that a road drive should be both smooth and flowing. Slow in/fast out is consistent with this and by slowing down early you get much more time to assess the hazard and prepare (position/speed/gear) to negotiate it, including timing your arrival to slot into that gap in the traffic. Sounds to me therefore as if your advice from Chris Gilbert is very sound.

Regards
Vieux tigre

Hi Mr C-W and Vieuxtigre, Ralge and JC,
I appreciate everything you've all said. I was out driving on Monday and realise that I am indeed very stuck in my habit of slowing down way too late before roundabouts etc on the road. Even though I was making a conscious effort to slow down earlier and more smoothly etc - I still didn't do it! It is obviously so ingrained. I will keep on and on until I do it properly. As far as my ROSPA runs are concerned - I am out early on a Sunday morning - usually out on a rural route and I actually don't come across many roundabouts at all. So not their fault as the time out is short. When you spend a day out with someone like Chris Gilbert - you're going to get found out

On track - I have the opposite problem Having had one or two little 'moments' I tend to brake a bit too early and then go in too slow and then need more gas than I should to get out again. I went to Bedford earlier this year and had a go at trail braking - quite useful but need to practice it more as my mind is saying 'Get it all done before you turn in'.

All in all I am very very passionate about my car and my driving and I won't give up trying to get both road and track a million times better

I have looked at your ADUK days out and would love to come and try one but feel a little intimidated by all of you because I don't think I'm near your standard at all yet!

StressedDave wrote:Come over and play with me in Milton Keynes then. http://youtu.be/DitlDt4Kj1w
I'm not exactly a fan of braking early though...

Awesome noise from under that bonnet has to be a V8??

Well Dave - I can see that you and I have some similarities because that is about my style ( or should I say 'was')! It is definitely different to the style advocated by Chris G and I dare say you can see why I am finding it difficult at this point to change to a completely polar opposite way of arriving at a roundabout.
So - what car was it??

Nicola wrote: I have looked at your ADUK days out and would love to come and try one but feel a little intimidated by all of you because I don't think I'm near your standard at all yet!

That's the very last thing you should feel! There's a wide range of abilities, from AD professionals to recent test-passers, on show at any ADUK driving day, but the ambience could not be less intimidating, as we're all there to learn from each other, and we're all passionate about our driving. ADUK'ers are really a great bunch of people, so come on in, the water's lovely! Oxford on 18th October is likely to be the last one of the season, though, unless some rash, impetuous type feels like risking a "winter wonderland" event.