ADUK Archive

Hi,

Hoping someone can give me some wisdom on brake gear overlap.

To keep it short, I don't understand why it's necessary, I don't think it improves my driving. It's a slower way of turning and it unnecessarily holds up traffic behind.

I've asked several people, from multiple organisations and never really had an answer I'm happy with. In most cases I just get told, we do it because it's the system and it's in the book, when I question it, im told WE DO IT BECAUSE IT'S THE SYSTEM AND IT'S IN THE BOOK!...repeat and add volume.

I won't disregard something I haven't tried. I have done it and passed my IAM test with it. I do find it difficult but I think that's because I don't belive it's right and hence don't practice it in my personal driving.

Those that are on PH will know there is a looooong thread about this already. I don't really want to repeat all that but would like to understand the reasons and benefits of doing it.

If I can understand the benefit, I'm likely to do it. The more I do it, the more natural it becomes. The more natural it becomes the less I have to worry every time I'm coming up for a test!

Any advice appreciated.

Rick.

Do you mean "brake gear separation" the opposite of "brake gear overlap"? Separation is what is usually pushed hard by the two advanced organisations that conduct advanced tests as their preference.

Do you regularly 'heal and toe'? If you don't you can't do a rev-matched gear change while braking. If you do, good luck sir! The best road drivers I have been with only use 'head and toe' occasionally and usually do a mixture of full brake/gear separation or 'partial overlap'.

I habitually ( ) do a 'partial overlap' where towards the end of the braking phase, I dip the clutch, change gear and then before I lift the clutch, I am off the brake and my right foot is available for rev-matching if required. Personally I find this make for a smoother, more flowing drive as I don't have to lose all my speed before changing gear. I used this on my IAM Masters test and the examiner didn't comment on it at all.

martine wrote:Do you regularly 'heal and toe'? If you don't you can't do a rev-matched gear change while braking. If you do, good luck sir! The best road drivers I have been with only use 'head and toe' occasionally and usually do a mixture of full brake/gear separation or 'partial overlap'.

I habitually ( ) do a 'partial overlap' where towards the end of the braking phase, I dip the clutch, change gear and then before I lift the clutch, I am off the brake and my right foot is available for rev-matching if required. Personally I find this make for a smoother, more flowing drive as I don't have to lose all my speed before changing gear. I used this on my IAM Masters test and the examiner didn't comment on it at all.

"Head and toe", Martin? That sounds interested but rather difficult.

Yes, sorry it's separation that is the issue.

I have been told no overlap is allowed whatsoever.

1 Brake for corner.
2 Come off brakes.
3 Right foot over gas (car usually near stall by this point)
4 Disengage clutch
5 Change gear (usually 3/4 to 2nd)
6 Engage clutch
7 Then begin turn


Nobody from IAM has mentioned rev match, The only time I've heard that is from people on here

I understand why you wouldn't usually trail brake into a corner but I don't see why you can't prepare your gear change, i.e 4 & 5 whilst under braking. As long as the clutch is disengaged and you remain in control of the car (braking not coasting) it doesn't really matter what you do with the gearbox surely.

martine wrote: I don't have to lose all my speed before changing gear.

I think this is the issue. I've been told you must SEPARATE. Speed then gear.

I think you're entirely right in what you're doing, thats how I do it. The system I've been taught feels unsafe to say the least.

jcochrane wrote:"Head and toe", Martin? That sounds interested but rather difficult.

Ahh John have you not heard of it? It's a racing technique used by Lewis Hamilton sometimes when he's out qualified by his upstart team mate.

(oooo controversial!)

Rick101 wrote:

martine wrote: I don't have to lose all my speed before changing gear.

I think this is the issue. I've been told you must SEPARATE. Speed then gear.

I think you're entirely right in what you're doing, thats how I do it. The system I've been taught feels unsafe to say the least.

Not sure full separation is unsafe! Why so?

Any half-decent Observer should be describing rev-matched gear changes and encouraging associates to do it...that's disappointing.

Have you seen a demo drive of full separation? I'm not a great advocate of it but it might show it's possible and not unsafe in anyway (with the possible exception of when you have close following traffic and need to lose lots of speed for say a sharp turn into a minor road).

Another reason is to help ensure you are using brakes to slow and not going for an early gear change and then dumping the clutch with the resulting engine braking...are you aware of why that's not generally not thought to be good?

Rick101 wrote:Yes, sorry it's separation that is the issue.

I have been told no overlap is allowed whatsoever.

1 Brake for corner.
2 Come off brakes.
3 Right foot over gas (car usually near stall by this point)
4 Disengage clutch
5 Change gear (usually 3/4 to 2nd)
6 Engage clutch
7 Then begin turn


Nobody from IAM has mentioned rev match, The only time I've heard that is from people on here

I understand why you wouldn't usually trail brake into a corner but I don't see why you can't prepare your gear change, i.e 4 & 5 whilst under braking. As long as the clutch is disengaged and you remain in control of the car (braking not coasting) it doesn't really matter what you do with the gearbox surely.

Thanks for clarifying.

I think separation is a very valuable tool to learn to slow down more and earlier for bends.
Personally I'm not in favour of the use of overlap (with partial separation or heel and toe) if it is used to get round slowing enough and early enough for a bend.

Having said that if speed has been adjusted properly then the partial overlap towards the very end of braking as described by martine makes for a smooth transition as rev matching is possible and I will sometimes use it as well full separation. I will also use heel and toe, particularly on rural roads, where I consider an early gear change, during braking, to be safer. Getting the gear change out of the way early allows my foot to be on the brake whilst closing onto a blind bend with both hands on the wheel. I'd rather that than be dipping the clutch and changing gear at a critical moment. It's also sublimely smooth. This is my view but some would see it as controversial.

I use all three methods in my own driving, selecting the one that I consider will work best for a given situation.

martine wrote:

jcochrane wrote:"Head and toe", Martin? That sounds interested but rather difficult.

Ahh John have you not heard of it? It's a racing technique used by Lewis Hamilton sometimes when he's out qualified by his upstart team mate.

(oooo controversial!)

You know what I'm like for learning tools to put in my driving box. I'd not heard of this one before so am very interested to learn more. Perhaps you could teach me how to do it next time we drive together?

jcochrane wrote:You know what I'm like for learning tools to put in my driving box. I'd not heard of this one before so am very interested to learn more. Perhaps you could teach me how to do it next time we drive together?

Be my pleasure John!

PS. 'Head and Toe' is a close derivative of another VERY advanced technique of...

martine wrote:

jcochrane wrote:You know what I'm like for learning tools to put in my driving box. I'd not heard of this one before so am very interested to learn more. Perhaps you could teach me how to do it next time we drive together?

Be my pleasure John!

PS. 'Head and Toe' is a close derivative of another VERY advanced technique of...

Wonderful. I can't wait.

Like anything else - once perfected the separation of brake and gears becomes easy and does not hold up others etc
Better forward observation and planning will sort out any issues

There is no must or must not - only preferred options

Any observer saying you must or must not needs retraining

jcochrane wrote:I think separation is a very valuable tool to learn to slow down more and earlier for bends.
Personally I'm not in favour of the use of overlap (with partial separation or heel and toe) if it is used to get round slowing enough and early enough for a bend.

I fully agree.

In addition, and importantly in my view, separation lets me rev match without heel'n'toe. Perhaps the OP's Observer doesn't know rev matching, which would be disappointing but not unlikely. If so, the OP should perhaps do an ADUK day or get someone more knowledgeable from here to give him an observed drive or demo.

Will hopefully be at Oxford so will raise it again then.

Got a ROSPA session this afternoon so will have a bash then. This is a different tutor to the one above but he does drive an auto so hasn't really mentioned much about brake gear separation. Good in other parts though.