The brake gear overlap

[jcochrane]

No not at all, was looking for a genuine solution to a problem.

Might be easy for you to to what you think is right but that doesn't mean the next person agrees with your technique.

I think the information in Road craft which is what most people seem to work to needs revising. It needs to give some clear must and must not's. That way their position can be clear and people can choose whether to use it or not.

A simple one liner about clutch use and what is regarded as the start of the gear change would be helpful to many I'm sure.

Driving is not about musts and must nots. In needs a flexible approach. A phrase often heard in advanced driving is "it all depends"

[titian]

But in an auto you are mostly having either brake gear overlap or acceleration gear overlap. So how are you justifying that in terms of the system? The whole way of thinking is absurd and modern vehicles are showing that up.

OK, just to put some flesh on the bones, I am approaching a blind bend because the road follows, to the left, around a country restuarant, no pavement, the road meets the walls of the building.

To gain more controll of my automatic car I am going to use the paddles to activate manual override in order that I don't get the "pulling" effect of the automatic once I lift off the brakes at walking pace. I am planning to be off the brakes say 15 yards before the blind turn and then to paddle select the manual gear - which at that speed I expect to be 2nd gear. So I travel a few yards, in gear, before the bend , under balanced neutral acceleration to the point where the limit point runs away and I accelerate and either continue to use the manual box or slip back into auto.

That procedure ensures I'm off the brakes before I select the gear for the bend, perhaps not classical IPSGA but as close as is possible in an automatic car - and is a darn site better than wallowing around the bend in the auto gear that the vehicle would have selected without manual intervention.

Depending on the particular gearbox, you might get a smoother or more pleasant result by paddling down through the gears sequentially while braking. Otherwise you are leaving the auto box to make its own decisions about how many gears to go down through before you interfere manually. Like to suggest possible advantages and disadvantages? (I could justify either technique, depending on car and circumstances. I am confident that either could be compatible with getting a Distinction in an IAM Masters test).

A distinct advantage is that control is under my right foot rather than me being pushed around the bend by the constant push of the auto drive even when off the accelerator, which then requires constant braking around the blind bend, a far from ideal situation.

So far as "paddling down" is concerned, experience has shown that the auto box almost matches the reduction in speed by changing down such that having achieved the entry speed for the bend one click of the downshift paddle gives me 2nd gear; I am using the auto box as it was designed to be used then taking manual control at the last moment. To paddle down through each gear would add complexity to what is a simple process.

So far as disadvantages are concerned, other than making use of the manual side of an auto box, a concept that may be alien to many auto car drivers, I can't really suggest any.

[JamesAllport]

What seems to be driving a lot of the decision making here is a desire to be back on the power as you turn in. In the kind of really sharp low speed stuff we're discussing, I often prefer to be on the brake until the view opens again. Done well, it's just as good a way of managing the weight of the car as throttle use.

[titian]

Thanks James, I can go with that, it's a matter of choice/style - it just feels wrong to be pulled round the bend on the brakes although I can appreciate your thinking.

It's not so much "on the power" as you would associate the phrase with normal bends but more like "in balance" with that bit of neutral acceleration - if that isn't a contradiction in terms.

[waremark]

Titian, I am delighted that you have come up with an intelligent approach which works well for you in your car.

I am surprised at your feeling that left in auto with no acceleration there will be enough drive to increase speed on a bend, whereas held manually in 2 this will not occur. Are you really certain that is the case?

I often use a manually held low gear on a bend but for a different reason. I want to increase the acceleration smoothly and progressively as the view opens out of the bend, so I don't want the transmission to kick down automatically as I increase the acceleration; holding a low gear manually from entry to the bend prevents that. However, on the sort of road where this would apply I am more likely to be using the gears manually anyway.

[titian]

Titian, I am delighted that you have come up with an intelligent approach which works well for you in your car.

I am surprised at your feeling that left in auto with no acceleration there will be enough drive to increase speed on a bend, whereas held manually in 2 this will not occur. Are you really certain that is the case?

I often use a manually held low gear on a bend but for a different reason. I want to increase the acceleration smoothly and progressively as the view opens out of the bend, so I don't want the transmission to kick down automatically as I increase the acceleration; holding a low gear manually from entry to the bend prevents that. However, on the sort of road where this would apply I am more likely to be using the gears manually anyway.

It's an 8 speed box and having achieved the speed for the bend I paddle down, "2" is displayed which indicates that it was in auto 3rd before, (the actual gear is not displayed in auto), and that would have had a pushing effect on the bend. There is a slight adverse camber, hardly worth mentioning, but it doesn't help.

I too would typically continue to use the paddles for a few miles along country lanes where the hedges have recently been cut back giving sporadic open cross views leading to a sprited drive, or at least that's what I call it, others may have their own view

[hir]

As for Rick... The way to look on it is that you shouldn't worry about the inputs but concentrate on the outputs. Remember that Roadcraft is the result of a race to the floor - it's designed as a safe system of work irrespective of the interest and talent of the Police driver and IAM/RoADAR is the same - there are whole swathes of techniques outside what is taught in Roadcraft that can enhance a drive.

+1

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

... I'm itching to learn H&T ...

What's stopping you? It seems you are a very rule-based person (mustn't start the next thing before finishing this one). You don't learn H&T, the technique is so simple there's virtually nothing to transfer in terms of "this is what you do". You just need to go out and practise it. You don't have to use it all the time even after you're proficient at it (which will take a while). Once you are, it's (to use that well-worn phrase) just another tool in the box...

[WhoseGeneration]

Original HPC book wherein the co authors disagreed about when to declutch coming to a stop.
They though respected each other's view, it was, if you like, a nuanced disagreement.
That's the point, good drivers use different means to reach the same conclusion.
Safe, without compromising others, should be the only consideration.

Which book is this?

Now, the problem is I'm going back nearly 50 years and back then I got the driving books from the library rather than buying, apart from RoadCraft.
A scout around the 'Net would suggest it might have been "High Performance Driving For You" by Tom Wisdom, thus not co authored but I seem to remember there were two involved, perhaps John Lyon?
Perhaps others here will be able to elucidate more, possibly having copies of the books from that era.
It's just that that particular different approach stuck in my mind and does have relevance with regard to the many discussions here. Ways to skin a cat?

[WhoseGeneration]

... I'm itching to learn H&T ...

What's stopping you? It seems you are a very rule-based person (mustn't start the next thing before finishing this one). You don't learn H&T, the technique is so simple there's virtually nothing to transfer in terms of "this is what you do". You just need to go out and practise it. You don't have to use it all the time even after you're proficient at it (which will take a while). Once you are, it's (to use that well-worn phrase) just another tool in the box...

So true, let's add double decluch to the mix, both up and down, then with the H&T.
All techniques probably redundant, or not necessary with current cars, depending upon transmission type but still adds to fun in our increasingly regulated world.

[Silk]

I really hope that your Associates get something better than I did by way of an answer!

I would expect them to have a genuine reason for asking the question.

[Gareth]

Original HPC book wherein the co authors disagreed about when to declutch coming to a stop.

Possibly thinking of 'The Porsche Driving Book'? Co-authored and published in 1988.

[Gromit37]

John Miles says in his book, Expert Driving the Police Way, that he believes heel and toe should be taught. He and Tom Wisdom disagreed about handbrake/neutral at lights etc in HPDFY.

[Gromit37]

No not at all, was looking for a genuine solution to a problem.

Might be easy for you to to what you think is right but that doesn't mean the next person agrees with your technique.

I think the information in Road craft which is what most people seem to work to needs revising. It needs to give some clear must and must not's. That way their position can be clear and people can choose whether to use it or not.

A simple one liner about clutch use and what is regarded as the start of the gear change would be helpful to many I'm sure.

Remember that Roadcraft is really just a reference for police officers to be used in conjunction with a number of weeks training at the hands of a police driving instructor. It's not meant to describe every detail of every technique. If it was, it would be several times the size and several timesvthe price too

For what it is worth, I personally find separation can becumbersome and unsuitable under certain circumstances, hence I overlap. Do what feels right at the time.

[TripleS]

For what it is worth, I personally find separation can be cumbersome and unsuitable under certain circumstances, hence I overlap. Do what feels right at the time.

Ah, you sound like fengpo's sensible neighbour.