Speed

[hir]

And if doing 100mph on the motorway is what you consider acceptable maybe you need to review your entire driving capabilities. [my emphasis]

I think the use of the impersonal pronoun "one" might have been more appropriate and would have appeared less confrontational than "you" in this context. Just a suggestion.

[hir]

There is of course strong campaigning at government level to reduce the 'rural' speed limit to 50 or even 40. Now that would certainly be a good thing. Thanks.

I thank you for joining the forum and extend a warm welcome.

Now, the nature of the beast is that if one posts a strongly held opinion one is going to be asked... why?/please explain?/are you serious?

So, in traditional forum speak... would you explain to me/us why you think... "that would certainly be a good thing", please.

[TripleS]

Interesting debate guys and also very polite and respectful...lets keep it that way please.

Quite agree, Martin, but some of the content of later posts is not making that very easy! Sorry, but I'm going to have to keep out of it. I can't cope with overly rigid and idealistic assertions from what appear to be relatively inexperienced and unqualified sources. I apologise if I'm seeing this wrongly, but that is how it looks to me.

A bit more openmindedness and flexibility would make a lot of difference: we can work with that.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[akirk]

Having an opinion / thinking through the reality of speed and limits does not equate to a belief that speed limits are de facto wrong / or that the thinker is some how above the law / above speed limits...

generally every AD system / organisation has an order of priority in driving which puts safety at the top and then legality next. it would be a rare situation where breaking the law regarding speed limits was a necessity to meet the safety criteria (if you are in that situation, you should have avoided it), so basically there is no AD system or organisation that condones breaking the speed limit at any time - and indeed most have a strong emphasis on safety meaning that the driver will usually be imposing speed limits below the legal limit to remain safe.

Sadly your opinion is not unusual - but it is seemingly deeply flawed - if one unpicks it at a logic level, your opinion could be seen as saying that:
- safety on the road is based on driving within the legal limits
- therefore observing the limits makes you a safe driver
- therefore a civil servant randomly choosing a speed limit based on a map / road clasification is the determinator of safety
surely that is an absurd extrapolation, but a belief in the speed limit as absolute is sadly that illogical...

The AD theory goes more like:
- the posted speed limit provides a good guide to safety on this road in good conditions, and gives me some understanding of the level of hazards I might / might not meet.
- the context of today's drive (weather / car / driver / others / etc.) means that I consider the limit should be seen as lower / the posted limit
- I will drive within the context of the actual driving conditions, even if that means going slower
- I might observe that the context allows a higher than posted speed to be used safely (dry day on the motorway with no traffic etc.)
- I choose to respect the law, so will drive to the posted limit
- My independence of thinking means that I understand the need for speed limits, but also recognise that they can at times be broken safely (albeit still illegally).
- I don't worry about other drivers - if they are good enough, their speeding won't affect anyone - if they are not, and they crash, my AD will keep me out of that situation, if I have a general concern then I believe that education is the liberator - AD education will help other drivers to make better decisions - and this would be a far stronger approach than simply bluntly adding more speed cameras / policemen without discretion...

Those debating this on here are doing so because they have brains engaged in thinking about driving, not because they have a blunt disregard for the speed limits. Speed limits are there because enforcement needs an arbitary value - in reality, scientifically, the difference in safety / accidents between 70mph and 71mph on the motorway is irrelevant - therefore an absolute limit is of course flawed in its nature - however that is how we run our society. A good traffic cop on the motorway observing a driver doing 80mph, but leaving plenty of space, indicating, driving safely, on a dry day without much traffic, is unlikely to pull them over. That same cop observing a car at 80 swerving around, cutting others up, doing so on a rainy day, etc. etc. - i.e. driving badly - may well pull them over and booking them for speeding is the easiest thing as there is documentary evidence on the camera - dangerous driving is much harder to prosecute. So intelligence is being applied - and all this debate is about is using intelligence to understand the context of speed limits.

As for affording AD lessons - others have posted how cheap they are - even cheaper if you simply buy Roadcraft from Amazon and look at applying it yourself! I do understand that motoring is not cheap, but if someone can afford a car then by making choices they can usually afford the low AD costs - if money is that tight then I am sure that a discussion with local AD members might lead to at least an informal observed drive...

Alasdair

[Carbon Based]

And yes, I would welcome an AD course if I could afford it, which I can't.

A few posts above highlight that the costs needn't be exorbitant.

In fact, you start with free, plus a bit of time and petrol: http://www.iam.org.uk/drivefree

Out of curiosity, what would you hope or expect to gain from such a course?

• An improvement of your own personal safety?
• Reinforcement that the concept of road safety is important to others too?
• More enjoyment from driving?

What about a combination of those things, or perhaps some entirely different ones?

[waremark]

"and Policing generally is at an all-time low."

I don't think so. Police strength is higher than in the 80's and 90's, before the Blair/Brown government started spending more on public sector employment than we could afford.

Road traffic casualties are at an all time low. The most significant individual factor in this is probably the improved safety engineering of vehicles. Unfortunately, the authorities have largely as a result of the reduced casualties reduced the policing of vehicle crime. They have also, controversially, focused on speed reduction rather than education and road engineering as the main tool of further casualty reduction.

[superplum]

And yes, I would welcome an AD course if I could afford it, which I can't.

A few posts above highlight that the costs needn't be exorbitant.

In fact, you start with free, plus a bit of time and petrol: http://www.iam.org.uk/drivefree

Just being pedantic but all IAM/RoADAR training is FREE; it's the membership that costs!

Typically £149 or £65 respectively. Expensive(?), just relate it to the price of a tyre or a tank-fill.

[waremark]

In fact, you start with free, plus a bit of time and petrol: http://www.iam.org.uk/drivefree

I did not know about this - how long has this been offered, does it replace the 'Assessment' for which there used to be a charge, is the process any different?

John O, is this something offered by my group?

[waremark]

Out of curiosity, what would you hope or expect to gain from such a course?

• An improvement of your own personal safety?
• Reinforcement that the concept of road safety is important to others too?
• More enjoyment from driving?

What about a combination of those things, or perhaps some entirely different ones?

It would certainly be good to hear more about the OP's interest in driving and in advanced driving. OP, do you enjoy driving? What type of driving do you enjoy most? What do you enjoy about it?

I suggest that for most of us here, though safety may have been one motivating factor for involvement in AD, the very fact that we are here implies that driving is a hobby. For me, safety is very much a by-product. I enjoy driving, and I enjoy it more when there is an element of challenge to it. I therefore enjoy driving more difficult cars on more difficult roads, and particularly on roads where I am challenged to make my own decisions about choice of speed and where there is a need for constant change of speed (motorways send me to sleep). I tend to find speed limits well below the safe speed annoying, and my enjoyment of my hobby would be curtailed by a gross expansion of 40 or 50 limits on rural roads.

[revian]

strong campaigning at governement level to reduce the 'rural' speed limit to 50 or even 40.

I often wonder whether people who campaign for this sort of change have significantly below average competence at driving....

Are not those both assertions without evidence? I could be wrong...

I would welcome an AD course if I could afford it, which I can't.

There can't be a huge number of drivers who are unable to afford the discretionary cost equivalent to a few extra tanks of fuel - my commiserations on your plight.

There I share...I could have afforded more in a strict budgetary sense but my/our finances are not 'gushing'. RoSPA was ideal in that it did cost less and spread the extra cost. It was well worthwhile and has reenergised my thinking and skill pursuit... 'GDE and out'

I hope you, kewicol, persist on the forum...

Ian

[hir]

In fact, you start with free, plus a bit of time and petrol: http://www.iam.org.uk/drivefree

I did not know about this - how long has this been offered, does it replace the 'Assessment' for which there used to be a charge, is the process any different?

John O, is this something offered by my group?

Hi Mark, the group has always offered free initial assessment drives from time immemorial and still does; I offered one only today as it happens.

The IAM's paid for "Assessment" drive bit the dust last year because a large number of rogue elements, like me, used to say to potential buyers... there's no need to pay for an assessment our group does it for free! Or, if they had already paid for it I used to tell them to insist on an equivalent discount from Chiswick if they then decided to buy Skill for Life because... my local group told me that I didn't need to pay for an assessment because they would have done it for free!

So, eventually, Chiswick gave up trying to sell it and finally saw the benefit of giving it away for free. Earlier this year our group was asked by the IAM if it would be prepared to participate in the free assessment drive scheme and we said... " YES because WE ALREADY DO IT FOR FREE!!!"

You will notice that there is a caveat at the foot of the IAM's relevant web page advising that the availabilty is not geographically universal. That's because some groups have refused to participate; which beggars belief actually.

Now that you're fully in the picture I shall ensure that the next "free assessment" applicant in your neck of the woods will have the pleasure of your company. Thanks for volunteering.

[martine]

....You will notice that there is a caveat at the foot of the IAM's relevant web page advising that the availabilty is not geographically universal. That's because some groups have refused to participate; which beggars belief actually.

eeek...Bristol could be one of those groups...

We do actually promote free assessments at particular events but we also offer a paid for assessment at other times. Our thinking is people often don't value something that is free and the modest charge makes a contribution to our group funds.

[waremark]

my enjoyment of my hobby would be curtailed by a gross expansion of 40 or 50 limits on rural roads.

Oh dear, Mark; are you not a supporter of BRAKE?

Somehow I don't think so. Not that I would necessarily admit it here if I was after all the stick that poor Lyndon got.

I had to stop supporting the Campaign for the Protection of Rural England, some of whose objectives I support, when they argued for a 40 mph speed limit on rural roads. Actually, they are now against road building, so if I hadn't left them before I would be leaving them now for that reason.

I would vote for putting the NSL's up, not down.

[hir]

We do actually promote free assessments at particular events but we also offer a paid for assessment at other times. Our thinking is people often don't value something that is free and the modest charge makes a contribution to our group funds.

Yes, I've heard this argument [it's not valued if it's free] before. The problem that we have is that we're not really offering anything very much that could be considered of significant value. What we're offering is a one hour assessment followed by guidance as to how an assessee might improve their driving and how a Skill for Life course might help in that goal. There's not much one can do in an hour in terms of coaching an individual, whom one may never see again, in the deep mystery and black arts of the "System"; Limit Point Technique; Signalling only if...; straight lining, etc. etc. The assessment usually takes the form of me saying, after about 15 minutes, something along the lines of... "I think it would beneficial if you kept two hands on the steering wheel and looked further up the road". And, then we practice that for the next 45 minutes. One has to ask the question who wants to pay for that. I'd be embarrassed to ask for the money. No. Much better to say, as I do at the end... "sign up for Skill for Life and you'll get as many drives as necessary [which is the case with our group], that's usually about ten drives, to get you up to advanced test standard. From what I've seen today I can't see any reason why you couldn't improve your driving and pass the advanced driving test. If you go on the website you can buy Skill for Life online. I'll look out for your name coming up on the list of new associates."

[akirk]

that is a really good approach - in my business (web & business consultancy) we offer a first meeting free - people want to know something about us - once they trust & understand us they are then happy to be charged... with AD - there is a change for those interested from passive to active driving - and to help them over that hump without charge is beneficial...

Alasdair