Speed

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby kewlcol » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:16 pm


New to forum, and just wanted to make a first contribution. :D

An overriding and desperate issue in this 'world of motoring' has to be how we counteract this 'speed disease'. I believe it is the most major factor in accidents and it has spread throughout our society at an appalling rate. Many people and not just young people live a 'fast paced' lifestyle where everything has to be achieved at high speed. Think about how we are rushed through supermarket checkouts, 5 minute time slots at GP surgeries, and even speed dating. Are we addicted to speed?

I believe the 'speed' problem does often go hand in hand with lack of concentration, or what to me appears to be a lack of interest in driving, with more importance being put on other things, like texting your mate. Many only see the vehicle as a means to get somewhere quickly, and their frustration is evident when held up in queues or stuck behind 'one of us' traveling at the legal speed limit. There are many sub factors I'm sure in accident causes, and bad driving seems to be a big issue. I think many 'bad drivers' have the ability to drive effectively, however the speed bug takes hold and disinterest in driving sets in. Disaster looms.

I'm not a qualified advanced driver, nor would I class myself as one, although it is something I want to achieve. But I think what sets 'us' apart is that we are interested in driving and therefore we put effort into that task and strive to be safe on the road. I also think there is a proportion of 'advanced drivers' who also think it is acceptable to speed, in the false belief that there knowledge of advanced driving techniques and car control will excuse them from complying with safe and legal driving.

Personally, and I'm sure many of you feel it too, is the difficulty to exercise restraint and stay calm about other drivers road attitude. I often find myself doing a Victor Meldrew, "I don't believe it"! And find my grip on the wheel has immensely tightened at my frustration about other peoples actions. I find it difficult to take the 'smile and ignore' attitude that many preach is the most sensible course of action. I am trying, however. In all seriousness though what can actually be done? Campaigning for reduced speed limits? Educating young drivers? Educating older drivers? Tougher penalties for offenders? Increased Policing? More speed humps? Or maybe all of those things and more besides. I thought I would offload a few of my examples of things that get my goat. Maybe others can share their thoughts too.

1. Undertaking. I think I am undertaken about as many times if not more that I am overtaken. Is this acceptable practice now? I'm sure they'd go over the top if they could. (remember KITT)

2. I live on an estate littered with speed 'humps' and a 20 limit. Which only serve to put more wear and tear on my car. They don't work. They simply cause people to go 'hell for leather' between each bump in the frustration another one is coming up.

3. At the end of my road is a 30 road, fairly busy and a thoroughfare into town from the A1 trunk. I think I might have seen 2 vehicles keeping to the speed limit last week, and they were being drawn by horses. Most travel at about 40+ and many at 50+. No cameras, only a flashing red 30 sensor sign, no one pays attention to. Why have them? And no Police activity, or if there is it was a Thursday afternoon in September 1969. I'm sure we all have roads like that near us. Tell me the answer.

4. In my town, major speed offenders are local 'fast food' delivery vans, taxis and the local buses. Again, the above mentioned road is the route back to the bus depot, and at end of shift there must be a road race to see who can clock off first. And since when did taxis become 'emergency vehicles'. They seem to think they can ignore many of the rules of the road, particularly the speed limit. I don't ever use them, but I don't imagine people jump in a taxi and say "get me to town as fast as you can, mate".

5. McDonalds. Just simply keep off the road altogether if you live near one between the hours of 7pm and midnight. Here's one from last week. Boy in Vauxhall Corsa leaving Mcdonalds 'speed-thru' heading into town. Right hand contained fone as he texted, and left hand eating a Mcfluffy (is that what it's called). What was he using to steer. A friend of mind informed me that they use their knees to steer. And I seriously didn't know they did that. I wouldn't have even considered trying to steer with my knees or with anything below the waist.

6. These interesting rebukes used by drivers is becoming increasingly common. When one has tailgated you and tried to offload their engine into your boot. They finally take an opportunity to overtake. This is usually on a bend after a long clear straight, or where there is someone sitting in a RH junction. They then flash their hazard lights as a rebuke that you have held them up. Is this becoming more and more common. Or if you are in lane 2 or 3 and someone is wanting to speed through at 123mph and you are holding them up, is the two finger approach as they are forced to undertake, but they appear to look back at you for what seems to be forever. And cars full of 'party girls'. I've never thought so many fingers could be stuck up all at once in one car.

Stop the world, I want to get off ......
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Postby jont » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:26 pm


You've said it yourself. Speed limits and anti-motoring measures don't work, and punish everyone equally. What is needed is a concerted driver education campaign and a move to get bad drivers off the road - stop obsessing about numbers on sticks. You also fail to distinguish between the legal nicety of speed limit obeisance, and the danger of inappropriate speed, regardless of what the number on the stick is.

/oh sorry, that wasn't what you wanted to hear, was it :twisted:
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Postby revian » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:16 pm


Welcome Kewicol...

My Tablet is too small for long reads or answers... But I tend to agree with jont.

Education and disqualification. Like the chap I overtook on the M6 last week... Middle lane, clearly creating a long text on his mobile... And not looking at the road. I'd be close to flogging for that... If not quite! 8)

Steering with the knees. I think you'll find someone got done for that in N Yorks fairly recently. Scaling Dam way? Can remember exactly but I think he was doing 70...

Ian
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Postby TripleS » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:31 pm


Hiya, kewlcol, and welcome to ADUK.

By 'eck, you've made me realise how fortunate I am. Maybe it's partly due to where I live.

Admittedly I do sometimes see other road users doing things that I would rather they didn't do, but I rarely get particularly concerned about it. I try to keep my own house in order, then I work on a 'live and let live' basis, etc.

With regard to your item 1, I can't help feeling that if you are finding yourself being 'undertaken' frequently, maybe you could consider if you are doing something wrong.

Anyhow I hope you will stick around here and enjoy your involvement.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby TripleS » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:36 pm


revian wrote:Welcome Kewicol...

My Tablet is too small for long reads or answers... But I tend to agree with jont.

Education and disqualification. Like the chap I overtook on the M6 last week... Middle lane, clearly creating a long text on his mobile... And not looking at the road. I'd be close to flogging for that... If not quite! 8)

Steering with the knees. I think you'll find someone got done for that in N Yorks fairly recently. Scaling Dam way? Can remember exactly but I think he was doing 70...

Ian


Yes, on the A171 near Ugthorpe / Scaling Dam. He was claimed to have been doing a good deal more than 70, I think, and performing some overtakes along the way: hands behind his head as well, according to a picture I saw. Anyhow, it weren't me. 8)
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Postby revian » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:41 pm

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Postby waremark » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:01 pm


TripleS wrote:Hiya, kewlcol, and welcome to ADUK.

By 'eck, you've made me realise how fortunate I am. Maybe it's partly due to where I live.

Admittedly I do sometimes see other road users doing things that I would rather they didn't do, but I rarely get particularly concerned about it. I try to keep my own house in order, then I work on a 'live and let live' basis, etc.

Dave.

Yes, welcome. I'm with Dave on all that, and I live in the bustling south east. I am not in the slightest bothered by other people breaking the speed limit and if they are pushing me from behind I try to help them get past. Why do you think you are so concerned about the behaviour of other drivers?

I agree use of distracting technology is an issue. I'd like to see more education at many levels and more enforcement on that issue in particular.
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:16 pm


You have made a perfectly reasonable post, and it has made me grateful for the fact I live in Berkshire!
The standard of driving around here is surprisingly good.

However, you say you get undertaken frequently, my question is, what kind of undertake are they?

Are they a fast undertake where the undertaker cuts into the left lane, floors it past and cuts back into your lane in front of you?
If that is the case, then not much can be done.

But if it's a gradual undertake where they cruise past doing 80 while you're doing 70, then I'd suggest you might need to re-think your lane choices on the motorway.
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Postby akirk » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:47 pm


Welcome to the forum, you have posted an interesting and thought through post - however it raises a number of questions which may get answers / replies you don't like - so don't be put off- the discussion is always in good nature...

to answer some of your points:

Speed is not a disease nor is it wrong or something to worry about - it is simply an easy metric which can be measured and a nice sound bite for the media. In any accident there are likely to be a number of issues from weather to car condition, driver ability to speed, etc etc. If you could have improved one of the other factors and not had the accident then it isn't speed alone which is the issue.

whether 'advanced drivers' consider it acceptable to speed is perhaps a little simplistic. I have an AD qualification (IAM) but do not consider myself an advanced driver - perhaps a more aware driver, but in my experience, doing the IAM course simply makes me even more conscious of how much I have to learn. An advanced driver might also be more aware of what the real speed limit is, and it rarely correlates exactly with the posted limit - it could be lower or higher - an AD should drive within the limit (and that could be 30 in a marked 60 limit if conditions are bad) - deciding to observe the legal limits is a choice on obeying the law - it is not directly a choice regarding safety.

your numbered points:

1 - I would probably overtake you, I would be very unlikely to undertake you - however as others have mentioned, if you are being undertaken you might need to ask why - AD includes doing as much as you can to manage the whole road scene - i.e. think about how your driving manages the driving of others - can you change your road positioning to help others? I did 800 miles of motorway the other weekend and only had one car try to undertake - and that probably because they misjudged... the vast majority of drivers have no interest in undertaking and are fairly strongly programmed to not undertake... unless another car is driving badly and is perhaps slow in an outside land blocking them where there is room to move over... So with no knowledge of your driving - this does raise questions as to why you are being undertaken...

2 - buy a range rover, speed humps are then no longer an issue :D - in fact I agree with you, they are frustrating, cause issues for emergency services and sports cars and don't really work - much better tends to be chicanes - we have them locally and they really do work well.

6 - as with number 1 - perhaps some analysis here to ask why there is an issue... I drive a range of cars, one of them though is fast and there are few who would get past if I didn't want them to - however, I am a very relaxed driver and if someone wishes to overtake - I will do what I can to help them - hold the left of the road, perhaps slow a little to make it easier etc. otherwise I will make good progress at the speed limit - there are few car drivers who would object to someone driving at the limit, even though they wish to overtake - is it possible that your driving is causing them some concern? If I am in lane 2 or 3 and someone approaches fast I move over to let them past - it rarely makes any difference to my journey time and if they are really going to have an accident I would rather it didn't include me! i still remember with a lot of pleasure a time 10 years ago when a youngster in a 1.1 metro (very rusty) flashed the Jag I was in - lane 3 of the motorway - to pass, I hadn't realised that the metro could do 95+ but he was determined and I was happy to share in his proud moment as he passed, so I pulled over!

I can understand your frustration, but it is interesting how looking at it from a different perspective - not seeing driving as competitive or a challenge - can suddenly make a lot of this very unimportant... for me a big part of AD is in that attitude...

As for solutions - as others have said, training is a big part of it - every 1 person who does AD training / who preaches that message to others makes a small but significant difference - other than that, there is no really easy option...

why not find someone to go out with on a sample drive so that they can review your driving and make suggestions - I had a session with a top instructor last week - a lot of fun, and learned a lot, it might throw open lots of ideas and thoughts...

Alasdair
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Postby kewlcol » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:03 am


Perhaps I may respond to these interesting comments guys.

I do detect in some quarters slight undertones of negativity and perhaps I should have realised that my comments may have attracted some criticism .... but on an advanced driving forum.

I am not an advanced driver and the term is very loose indeed. I do try to be a good driver, and I put safety first in all aspects of driving. As I'm sure we all have, I have seen many examples of 'bad driving' and I don't beleive for one minute anyone is exempt from that whatever job or qualification they hold.

Jont - I really don't think you deserve a reply, but simply wanted to highlight "obsessing about numbers on sticks". I don't think I need comment further do you.

Ian - Thank you. Sorry you agree with Jont, but I do agree with your comments.

Dave - Thank you too. I understand it's important to focus on what you do and not other's errors, but that can be difficult sometimes. I have friends work within the motor patrol section of our local Police force, who tell me of their endless frustration at drivers. I know many many motorists professional and otherwise who share in that frustration and in this motoring world which has because of many factors become a survival course in many ways. With regard to undertaking I only regularly use dual carriageway and one which can have many heavies in lane 1. So when I choose to use lane 2 I frequently get undertaken when travelling at the speed limit if safe to do so. I don't purposely 'hold up' anyone but I wouldn't normally dive in and out of spaces in lane 1.

Mark - I wonder why you are not in the slightest bit bothered by others breaking the speed limit. It's like saying I don't care who gets murdered as long as I don't murder anyone. Very odd. And why should I not be concerned. It is concerns about the behaviour of others on the road that has made some efforts to improve road safety, perhaps saving lives. Or is that not a concern of yours? A live and let live attitude which corrupts the very morals of society in many ways is clearly one you support. And yes 'distracting technology' is a serious issue, I agree too.

TheInsanity1234 - Thank you. And that does surprise me. The standard in the North of England is appalling in many ways, but certainly speeding is by far the overriding one. I don't however drive around looking for other drivers faults, I tend to only really notice the ones where my safety could be put at risk or where I actually have to take evasive action. But being a pedestrian and cyclist is really where I notice the poor standard of driving. And there are many roads I simply will not walk or cycle along. And yes, it is the fast undertaker cutting in that I'm referring to. On motorway I wouldn't lane hog in 2 or 3 for longer than necessary.

Alasdair - Thank you too for your kind welcome. I think the term speed disease is simply an opinion. But I disagree as many areas of statistics and research has shown that speed alone is the dominant factor in road traffic collisions and fatalities. Yes there are other factors, but driver error is paramount. Weather: again drivers need to respond accordingly. Which may even mean not driving at all, which many ignore when warned in bad weather. Perhaps a lightning strike could be a minor exception. I agree with your point Alasdair about speed limits and that the 'safe' speed limit may be no where near what the post says. I would not advocate going higher than the legal limit, but perhaps if you are evading an armed gunman it might be your only chance of survival.
I have mentioned previously about the 'undertaking'. And 800 miles of motorway, that would be soul destroying for many. I don't normally drive motorway as there isn't one near me for 60+ miles. However, I am confident at my approach to them. And I agree again about there being no need to hog the outside lanes. I couldn't afford a range rover Alasdair nor would I want one. I have a Citroen C2, my only car I drive. And yes chicanes are a superb idea. And I certainly have no need for fast cars. I drive within the speed limits. Unless you have a blue light on top you don't have any reason to drive fast. And yes I do agree with your points about people wanting to overtake and your action to avoid collision and so ease their passage. I must admit I am a bit of a stickler for 30mph (or often less depending on hazards) in town (in no more than 3rd gear of course). And I have a trail of frustrated motorists behind who want to travel at 35/40.
I certainly don't see driving as competitive. Chanllenging yes, because you are planning all the time for how the road unfolds, hazards all around the environment and the actions and mistakes of other drivers. Planning a get-away route, thinking about what will happen if ... And at the same time being able to enjoy the drive and maybe take in a little of the pleasant countryside around us. I don't think 'relaxing' is something to do whilst driving Alasdair. Maybe when you pull over park up and take out your kindle for 20 minutes yes. And I do support your comments about attitude, training and reviewing your driving. I would welcome that opportunity. I do find that I don't trust many people's driving. And like I said I wouldn't for example use a taxi, unless in desparation perhaps. And the reason for that is experience. Too many people that have driven me have driven in a careless manner and too fast.
Finally, a chat last week with a chap who has been involved with vintage cars and rallys for many years, and who I would class as an 'advanced driver', said to me. "Nowadays, everyone just wants to be in front of you, being behind just isn't good enough". And such a true comment.
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Postby waremark » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:16 am


A couple of observations. My views are quite different from yours, but I hope we can respect each other's.

I see breaking the speed limit as a victimless crime, unlike murder.

I don't want people to drive too fast for safety, but if they do so I just want to keep out of their way. Unless I am in the car with them there is not much I can do about it. It does not cause me to feel anxious or irritated.

Unlike you, I think a minority of drivers wish to go over 35 in a 30, I think most drivers are quite cooperative, and most also are happy on single carriageways to follow at the speed chosen by the car in front.

I don't believe that speed moderately in excess of the speed limit is a major factor in road safety. Failure to recognise where safety requires speeds below the limit is almost certainly more significant.

I do try to drive safely and to help others improve the safety of their driving (by being an IAM Observer). However my personal model of good driving also involves driving as quickly as is consistent with safety, smoothness, courtesy and the law. So far as other people's driving is concerned, I regard the law aspect as a matter of personal choice and nothing to do with the quality of driving.
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Postby jont » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:42 am


kewlcol wrote:Jont - I really don't think you deserve a reply, but simply wanted to highlight "obsessing about numbers on sticks". I don't think I need comment further do you.

Thank you. You've proved my point. I know it can be conceptually difficult if you've never thought about it before, but from a road safety perspective, a speed limit is exactly that - a number on a stick. Others have added similar thoughts, so let's try and put it another way.

More concerningly, a speed limit is almost never the maximum safe speed for a section of road. Sometimes, going significantly faster would be perfectly safe (why else would emergency drivers be given exemptions?). Sometimes, (and this is where many people go wrong), you should be going much slower.

Far too many people use the speed limit as a crutch for safety. The explosive growth in lower limits has only served to encourage this. Not speeding? Well they must be driving safely :roll: (never mind the hand held phone or texting, busy fiddling with the radio/drinking coffee etc etc). Afterall, if I needed to go slower, the LA would have lowered the limit, wouldn't they :roll: Could you drive safely if all the speed limits were removed overnight?

What about roads with overnight limit changes - from 60 to 50 or even 40. Does that mean the 60mph you were doing yesterday was unsafe? And if not, why would it now be unsafe?

Again, far too many people conflate "legal" driving with "safe" driving. Until that distinction becomes better understood, we're unlikely to have a useful discussion about improving road safety.
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Postby trashbat » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:44 am


OP, I almost completely disagree with your opening gambit about speed, but other people are dissecting that already so I won't go there.

I notice your viewpoint seems to revolve around the idea that other people are dangerous and constantly putting you in danger. Perhaps they are and do, but most people on here aren't plagued by the same affliction and I can suggest why.

Personal road safety is about owning a bigger piece of the problem - no longer being directly subject to the whirlwind that is other people's mistakes, because your own behaviour deliberately mitigates risk (and doesn't induce further trouble either). It makes for a pretty relaxing time on the road. Blaming other people does not.

I think your perspective would benefit from going through an AD course of some sort.
Rob - IAM F1RST, Alfa Romeo 156 JTS
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Postby daz6215 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:04 am


Kewlcol- I think you do make some valid points and the root cause of many things you talk about is as you say 'societies fast paced lifestyle'. Take a look at the disgraceful behaviour of the 'black Friday' lot, trampling over people to get to the front. :cry: What you are witnessing on the roads is in many respects this kind of behaviour. It is of course a 'perception' and not everyone will see the same 'perception' as their own values, beliefs and past experiences will differ from yours and mine!

As far as traffic calming goes, I'm not a fan of any of it. It has been over used by the silly people in local authorities and as a result has lost the intended impact! What it does do very well is increase frustration which in turn leads to 'risky' decision making! They also create 'clusters' of traffic moving in one, playing follow my leader through the chicanes. What is needed is a more robust education and enforcement system for the repeat offenders, unfortunately the cuts have absolutely decimated policing to the point where roads policing is not a priority, as precious resources are being stretched to breaking point!
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Postby martine » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:35 pm


Interesting debate guys and also very polite and respectful...lets keep it that way please. :)
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
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