Reaction to skids in an ESP-equipped car

[WhoseGeneration]

A question to the qualifying authorities might be, "Why does not initial learning include experience of the various safety systems built into many current cars?"
Especially as those of a more advanced nature are not too sure of them and how they act in any given situation.

[TripleS]

A question to the qualifying authorities might be, "Why does not initial learning include experience of the various safety systems built into many current cars?"
Especially as those of a more advanced nature are not too sure of them and how they act in any given situation.

I suppose it would make sense to introduce learner drivers to some of the newer systems, but I wouldn't want them to go away with the notion that they will give total protection. It seems to me preferable that new drivers should be taught to be self-sufficient in safety terms from their own skills, and so far as possible forget that there is fancy technology in reserve to help them out in emergency situations, but I'm not sure how you best do that.

[Astraist]

At the very least drivers should experience ABS by going through an emergency braking drill. There much more to be learned from appreciating and anticipating the activation of ABS under sudden braking, than there is with ESP during maneuvers.

Not to mention that a driver that does not undergo this drill probably won't brake hard enough to begin with, and will not utilize the ability to steer to avoid a hazard too close for stopping, or a hazard behind.

[WhoseGeneration]

At the very least drivers should experience ABS by going through an emergency braking drill. There much more to be learned from appreciating and anticipating the activation of ABS under sudden braking, than there is with ESP during maneuvers.

Not to mention that a driver that does not undergo this drill probably won't brake hard enough to begin with, and will not utilize the ability to steer to avoid a hazard too close for stopping, or a hazard behind.

Which would imply some off public road training, as with in the UK, motorcycle training.

[jont]

A question to the qualifying authorities might be, "Why does not initial learning include experience of the various safety systems built into many current cars?"
Especially as those of a more advanced nature are not too sure of them and how they act in any given situation.

I had a short trip in my boss's new Merc M-class recently. Quite frankly I thought there should be a proper written exam on the systems in it before you're allowed to rely on any of them (and TBH, that should also include understanding when they don't work). From rear view cameras (with position markers showing where the car will go) to blind spot warnings, radar cruise control, low speed emergency braking, higher speed collision warnings, lane departure warnings, and that's all I can remember from a 5 mile trip to the pub.

I have no idea how you're supposed to instinctively know what any of the random warnings mean - particularly if one goes off in anger when you're distracted/tired.

I'd also love to know whether any of them will cause MoT fails when they go wrong once the car is out of warranty - because if they do, there's no way I want a car with any of them

[TripleS]

A question to the qualifying authorities might be, "Why does not initial learning include experience of the various safety systems built into many current cars?"
Especially as those of a more advanced nature are not too sure of them and how they act in any given situation.

I had a short trip in my boss's new Merc M-class recently. Quite frankly I thought there should be a proper written exam on the systems in it before you're allowed to rely on any of them (and TBH, that should also include understanding when they don't work). From rear view cameras (with position markers showing where the car will go) to blind spot warnings, radar cruise control, low speed emergency braking, higher speed collision warnings, lane departure warnings, and that's all I can remember from a 5 mile trip to the pub.

I have no idea how you're supposed to instinctively know what any of the random warnings mean - particularly if one goes off in anger when you're distracted/tired.

I'd also love to know whether any of them will cause MoT fails when they go wrong once the car is out of warranty - because if they do, there's no way I want a car with any of them

You're talking my language, Jon.

The trend seems to be for governments to make these fancy systems mandatory, so the manufacturers have to provide them, in which case it will be logical to require that the systems be seen to be in working order at MOT time; and if they are not, there could be large costs for the owner. I think it is becoming nonsensical, but that's the way we seem to be heading. Progress is good, and to be welcomed in general terms, but this is becoming ridiculous.

[Gareth]

The trend seems to be for governments to make these fancy systems mandatory, so the manufacturers have to provide them, in which case it will be logical to require that the systems be seen to be in working order at MOT time; and if they are not, there could be large costs for the owner.

Are certain it's not a manufacturer-led sequence?

Manufacturers create these fancy systems, which then busy-bodies think are such a good idea that everyone should be forced to have them, ... which leads to built-in obsolescence and more cars sold!

[TripleS]

The trend seems to be for governments to make these fancy systems mandatory, so the manufacturers have to provide them, in which case it will be logical to require that the systems be seen to be in working order at MOT time; and if they are not, there could be large costs for the owner.

Are certain it's not a manufacturer-led sequence?

Manufacturers create these fancy systems, which then busy-bodies think are such a good idea that everyone should be forced to have them, ... which leads to built-in obsolescence and more cars sold!

Yes, on reflection I think you are right. Manufacturers are devising the stuff - and very clever it is too - so the government says we all have to have it. Quite frankly, while it is undoubtedly of some benefit, for the most part it is added complexity and cost that is not justified. It's a PITA, in summary.

[Astraist]

I have to say I am suprised at the relative lack of popularity of ESP in this forum.

In my country, ESP is ver popular amongst advanced drivers, and all driving coaches advocate buying cars with the system.

And yet, we do not come across low-grip conditions nearly as often as in the UK or any of mainland Europe, putting poorly paved roads aside. Hell, so far I can count the rain showers in this "winter" with the fingers on my two hands!

Still, I find ESP and ABS to be life saving as an understatement! And all my pupils get to experience both, mainly ABS, off of the road.

[martine]

I have to say I am suprised at the relative lack of popularity of ESP in this forum...

I'm not sure that statement is true...2 or 3 in earlier posts but I suspect many like myself are quite happy with ESP. I've triggered it perhaps 3 times in several years ownership...once deliberately to see what it did/felt like, once mildly and once 'fully' - as Mr Toad will testify

[martine]

It's an ego thing - we're all sufficiently competent drivers that we don't need these superb driver's aids - right up until we do really need them...

I've had quite a few 'discussions' on the Focus ST Owners Club forum about ESP - there are some members who habitually switch the ESP off as they say it 'interferes' with their driving. My comment is: fine for the track but they would probably not have enough space on the road to let them recover using their Hamilton-esq driving skills from that patch of diesel/mud/water just around the next bend.

[TripleS]

I have to say I am suprised at the relative lack of popularity of ESP in this forum.

It's an ego thing - we're all sufficiently competent drivers that we don't need these superb driver's aids - right up until we do really need them...

Whilst my purchasing decision wouldn't be based on the fact that a vehicle is fitted with them, I wouldn't actively go out of my way to avoid vehicles fitted with them due to my scintillating driving skills.

Well I'm all in favour of a bit of humour, but that's being silly, Dave.

Mock if you must (if that's what you're doing) but the plain fact is that some drivers have managed very well, and for a very long time, without such driver aids. It's not a matter of them claiming, or even believing, that they have what you call scintillating driving skills; but one might have the wit to accept that they have some ability which has done a pretty good job of keeping them out of trouble. It doesn't matter what it is, but if it is there and it has proved itself, it should not be dismissed lightly.

I'm not going to claim to have advanced car handling skills, bacause I know very well that I don't; but what I do think I have is a pretty good ability to evaluate road surfaces and confine myself to speeds that will not be excessive for the prevailing conditions. This can not guarantee total success, but I do not see the need to have ESP just in case I encounter a difficult situation at some point in the future. You make your own choice, and I will not criticise you for it, whatever it is. Have we got a deal?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

If ESP was a cost option I would pay to have it. Cannot say how much I would be prepared to pay, but probably not that much.

When my children bought their first cars (or even when I bought their first cars!) insurance considerations meant choosing low powered versions which lacked ESP. I would have preferred them to have higher powered versions with ESP. (My eldest now has 616 bhp and it has not done him any harm yet).

[TripleS]

If ESP was a cost option I would pay to have it. Cannot say how much I would be prepared to pay, but probably not that much.

When my children bought their first cars (or even when I bought their first cars!) insurance considerations meant choosing low powered versions which lacked ESP. I would have preferred them to have higher powered versions with ESP. (My eldest now has 616 bhp and it has not done him any harm yet).

Do you happen to know to what extent the ESP has saved him from serious mishaps? Has it proved to be a clear benefit, or is it merely reassuring to know that the feature is there in case of need?

Going back to your first paragraph, I note that you wouldn't want to pay much for ESP as an optional item at extra cost, but my reluctance is not only on account of the extra cost at the time of buying a car. I'm more concerned about the potential for giving rise to big bills should it fail or develop serious problems in the later life of the car.

[akirk]

one of the few failures I have had on the z3 was part of the DSC - the accelerometer failed when water was allowed into the car and it soaked the carpet / under-seat area - so not a fault in the system... total cost to replace inc. labour - c. £100

I would hope to not need the system, so arguably no point in paying for it, but for me AD is partly about having extra layers of safety-net, which allows a more enjoyable drive - if driving at 40mph involved both car and myself on the edge then it would be more worry than fun - by increasing the level at which I can drive safely I can enjoy the driving more - so ESP / DSC etc. is another safety net and that helps...

Alasdair