Reaction to skids in an ESP-equipped car

[Astraist]

Mock if you must (if that's what you're doing) but the plain fact is that some drivers have managed very well, and for a very long time, without such driver aids. It's not a matter of them claiming, or even believing, that they have what you call scintillating driving skills; but one might have the wit to accept that they have some ability which has done a pretty good job of keeping them out of trouble. It doesn't matter what it is, but if it is there and it has proved itself, it should not be dismissed lightly.

I'm not going to claim to have advanced car handling skills, bacause I know very well that I don't; but what I do think I have is a pretty good ability to evaluate road surfaces and confine myself to speeds that will not be excessive for the prevailing conditions. This can not guarantee total success, but I do not see the need to have ESP just in case I encounter a difficult situation at some point in the future. You make your own choice, and I will not criticise you for it, whatever it is. Have we got a deal?

Have you experienced ESP in action? have you experienced a major incident of skidding without it? Have you asked yourself what was to occur if you drove through a big puddle of motor oil in the dark, where it's bearly noticeable from afar?

I always try to develop my driving (and others) at several levels and alongside classic advanced driving (with it's stress on concentration, observation, planning and executing), I also developed said "car-handling skills" and even skills related to the course of action to be taken after you crash (ever practiced getting out of a rolled-over wreck?).

However, with both preventative skills and recovery skills, and in conditions far better than in the UK in terms of road grip and visibility - I value both ABS and ESP (and ARP, and EBD...) in gold. And my appreciation does not pass without criticism and I do discern the systems' limits, and still I find them terribly effective, and quite reliable over time.

Advanced driving, to me, is about layers over layers of protection. The first is pure statistics or "luck" as to not to be involved in a hazardous situation. The second and main one is observation to minimize the risk, but this only goes so far and sometimes the third layer of getting out of an emergency situation is needed an sometimes it's the car's passive safety that you fall back on. ESP and ABS offer an intermediate level of safety in between the last two, which I much appreciate.

Yes, I might get by without it. But drivers got by with ill-gripping cars in the twenties with steering columns that would pierce their sternum. Even today, I as an advanced driver, see very bad drivers get away with very bad driving habits even over a very long record of driving and with a lot of mileage. Is that any indication of doing things efficiently or just (or leastways "in part") a result of the said black arts of statistics?

[TripleS]

Well I'm sorry Astraist, but there's too much muddled thinking and forecast of doom and disaster in your post, and I can't be bothered trying to untangle it all.

There seem to be one or two people here that simply can't bear to have their (sometimes questionable) advice disregarded. Perhaps we should all be thankful they are not in the dictator business.

I've explained my view on the subject, and you don't like it. Tough: just let us leave it at that.

[Astraist]

First, I think that my post came out as a bit more combative that intended, not to mention too long. Read it and you will find that I mostly talked about myself and my view on ESP.

While I do advocate ESP, I discern it's limitations and I always stress that the driver is the most important safety feature of each vehicle.

So a driver with good observation skills (and preferably some car control skills, says I) comes before any kind of electronics.

[TripleS]

Mock if you must (if that's what you're doing) but the plain fact is that some drivers have managed very well, and for a very long time, without such driver aids. It's not a matter of them claiming, or even believing, that they have what you call scintillating driving skills; but one might have the wit to accept that they have some ability which has done a pretty good job of keeping them out of trouble. It doesn't matter what it is, but if it is there and it has proved itself, it should not be dismissed lightly.

I'm not dismissing it lightly, but the point is, to quote every ad for savings 'past performance is no guarantee of future performance'. You simply just don't know when your luck will run out and if there's something nannying, that you ought never to trigger, that will save you becoming a bloody smear on the road then surely it's something worth having.

Of course it is something to consider, but I prefer that we make our own assessments of the risk/reward balance. At some point in the future I might reconsider this, and come to a different view.

When something goes wrong, ESP offers a potential benefit, I'm not denying that, but it is certainly not a guaranteed benefit. In the conditions I encountered last Monday morning, for example, it was my observation and correct assessment of the road surface, and a suitable choice of speed that avoided trouble. If I had had ESP available but paid less attention to the road conditions, I suspect the outcome would have been worse.

As for luck; well that plays a part for all of us, and you may think I place excessive reliance on it, but I would disagree. Anyhow, drive safely, with or without ESP.

[Tosh]

...it was my observation and correct assessment of the road surface, and a suitable choice of speed that avoided trouble. If I had had ESP available but paid less attention to the road conditions, I suspect the outcome would have been worse.

Hence the need. The fact is that most people get into their car and point it in the direction that they intend to go. That is the extent of their awareness and planning. The only adjustments they make are to the stereo so ESP is there as a safety net to hopefully keep them on the road and out of harms way. Not only will ESP endeavour to keep the occupants and the passengers of the equipped vehicle safe but a car that is equipped with ESP is far less likely to be seen coming broadside on the wrong side of the road into the path of oncoming traffic.

[TripleS]

First, I think that my post came out as a bit more combative that intended, not to mention too long. Read it and you will find that I mostly talked about myself and my view on ESP.

While I do advocate ESP, I discern it's limitations and I always stress that the driver is the most important safety feature of each vehicle.

So a driver with good observation skills (and preferably some car control skills, says I) comes before any kind of electronics.

That's fine, I can work with that approach. I guess we're pals again, which is always my preference, even if we don't always take quite the same view of things.

[TripleS]

...it was my observation and correct assessment of the road surface, and a suitable choice of speed that avoided trouble. If I had had ESP available but paid less attention to the road conditions, I suspect the outcome would have been worse.

Hence the need. The fact is that most people get into their car and point it in the direction that they intend to go. That is the extent of their awareness and planning. The only adjustments they make are to the stereo so ESP is there as a safety net to hopefully keep them on the road and out of harms way. Not only will ESP endeavour to keep the occupants and the passengers of the equipped vehicle safe but a car that is equipped with ESP is far less likely to be seen coming broadside on the wrong side of the road into the path of oncoming traffic.

Well you say 'hence the need', but there was so little grip available that I very much doubt if ESP would have been able to correct things had the speed been excessive. In many cases it probably could save us, but don't let's oversell it. ESP capabilities are not unlimited.

[Astraist]

If the speed is not in excess of 30% of the maximum speed otherwise possible without sliding - ESP should prevail. It does not sound like much, but those 30% are quite a lot!

[WhoseGeneration]

Hence the need. The fact is that most people get into their car and point it in the direction that they intend to go. That is the extent of their awareness and planning. The only adjustments they make are to the stereo so ESP is there as a safety net to hopefully keep them on the road and out of harms way. Not only will ESP endeavour to keep the occupants and the passengers of the equipped vehicle safe but a car that is equipped with ESP is far less likely to be seen coming broadside on the wrong side of the road into the path of oncoming traffic.

Absolutely, I'm old enough to have seen, over decades, the vast improvements in car performance in terms of speed and handling but also that the drivers haven't improved to the same extent.

[Tosh]

Hence the need. The fact is that most people get into their car and point it in the direction that they intend to go. That is the extent of their awareness and planning. The only adjustments they make are to the stereo so ESP is there as a safety net to hopefully keep them on the road and out of harms way. Not only will ESP endeavour to keep the occupants and the passengers of the equipped vehicle safe but a car that is equipped with ESP is far less likely to be seen coming broadside on the wrong side of the road into the path of oncoming traffic.

Absolutely, I'm old enough to have seen, over decades, the vast improvements in car performance in terms of speed and handling but also that the drivers haven't improved to the same extent.

Nor will performance of drivers ever improve to the extent that the need for collision avoidance and protection systems will be ever negated. That is just pure fantasy. The reason why is while we refer to them as drivers we may as well refer to them as the general public, a whole cross section of society whose only common thing in this respect is that they all get behind the wheel of a car, van, lorry, or bus.
Everyone of them has different reasons for their journey be it the seventeen year old thinking he's Ken Block or his granny who goes to the shops once a week. All different and all thinking different. So while we can educate them all with the same information about tyre grip and understeer, if it doesn't relate to their driving needs then that information is discarded as unnecessary clutter. So. What do we do? More education? More training? Keep at it until it sticks? We'd be there a long time I'd guess.

So, this is why driver aids like ESP and the rest are now being fitted. They will work for all drivers in all situations with no requirements required from the driver except to steer generally in the right direction which I believe is more or less a subconcious act requiring no active thought process. It is entirley debatable just how effective the system is. There are those who have testified to its benefits, getting them out of a stiuation where a crash was inevitable and swear by it.
There are those who know it's limitations and there are others who feel perfectly safe in their own driving ability and feel that the possible costs outweigh the benefits of the system. Lets hope that for those in the latter it isn't something that is hoped for just before they have that crash they hoped their ability would keep them out of.

Sometimes the situations are not of our making and having a helping hand out of them can never be a bad thing.

[jont]

Sometimes the situations are not of our making and having a helping hand out of them can never be a bad thing.

Until people think the systems are some kind of magic which exempts them from the laws of physics. I think we'll also see a gradual de-skilling as (semi)autonomous systems become more common place. Much like people passing a test in an auto can only drive an auto, maybe we'll need new classes of licence for cars with park assist, hill start, automatic handbrakes, etc etc.

[TripleS]

If the speed is not in excess of 30% of the maximum speed otherwise possible without sliding - ESP should prevail. It does not sound like much, but those 30% are quite a lot!

Well now, I've no wish to offend you again, or anybody else for that matter, but what you've said there doesn't make sense. Please look again at what you said, and see if you really think it is right.

I'm inclined to feel that if the speed is "not in excess of 30% of the maximum speed otherwise possible without sliding", ESP would serve no useful purpose - the probability is that I, and my driving style, would (not just should) prevail, and there would be no adverse outcome.

I wonder if you really mean a speed that doesn't exceed the maximum speed otherwise possible without sliding by more than 30%, which is a very different matter. In any case, how reliable is the 30% figure? Does it not vary considerably, according to various factors? If we're going to quote numbers, let's be sure they are right, or at least make it clear that they are subject to some margin of error.

For example, if you mean what I think you mean, it implies that I could drive into a bend at 91 mph, a bend for which the maximum speed without sliding might be 70 mph, and expect that the ESP will respond in a way that prevents me from coming to grief. To me that is a pretty large margin of excess speed, and I wouldn't have confidence that the ESP would keep me safe in that situation.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Sometimes the situations are not of our making and having a helping hand out of them can never be a bad thing.

Until people think the systems are some kind of magic which exempts them from the laws of physics. I think we'll also see a gradual de-skilling as (semi)autonomous systems become more common place. Much like people passing a test in an auto can only drive an auto, maybe we'll need new classes of licence for cars with park assist, hill start, automatic handbrakes, etc etc.

Well, Jon, you may not fully share my feelings about this, but it sounds as if you have at least some reservations about the degree of faith being placed in ESP and similar technical aids for drivers; and I think you are right to have some doubts about it. The danger, to my mind, is that while it will not affect the sort of drivers we have here on this forum, the generality of drivers will, even if only subconsciously, downgrade their attention to their own skills, and come to rely on technology to keep them safe. From time to time they will be finding out that it can not do that. It does not have unlimited capability to save us from our misjudgements.

Some people appear to feel that I'm being overly confident about my driving, (not to say complacent and cocky), and if that's their conclusion, I don't see it as a good indicator of their judgement and sense of proportion, but then I would say that.

Oh well, I think I'll make a little diversion to round up my new girlfriend and see if she can raise the tone a bit.

Bes wishes all,
David.

[daz6215]

I think some on here over estimate the average driver's awareness of such technology. Most probably dont even know they have it and most certainly wont know what it is for. So to suggest that it can de skill the average driver and temp them to push the car to it's and their own limits I am not so sure about. I personally think that the drivers who would be tempted to explore the said limits and actually engage the system are probably the one's who like to think of themselves as the stig or something. As for the average joe public who hasn't got a clue what any of these systems do I'm sure that those systems have saved many a collision from occurring because they would not possess the recovery skills needed and obviously dont have the necessary skill needed to avoid in the first place. So my view is this- technology moves on and as a result your techniques may need to change in order to accommodate, take power steering as an example, how many on here wouldn't want that on their personal run around? How many are still ramming pull push down peoples throats in every aspect of driving because that method was introduced into Hendon to help turn the wheels of those 1930s vehicles? You never know you might have narrowly missed being caught up in someone else's bad decision making but because of those systems intervening it never happened and no one was any the wiser!

[triquet]

How often do ABS, ESP, Traction Control actually ever get called into play in real-life real-road driving? I can only think of two occasions in the last five years or so when ABS kicked in (both fairly genuine emergencies) and Traction Control maybe once when it was a bit greasy underfoot.