ADUK Archive

Rick101 wrote:I always found it strange that some observers would place great importance on what seem to be very minor things, pull push and thumb position being one of them.

Raising the point that Roadcraft also talks about rotational steering is often met with agitation and annoyance.

I sometimes question whether we have the right type of people as observers.

I chuckled when told by an observer to hold the gearstick with my thumb down when pushing it away and thumb up when pulling it towards.... "because it's safer". This person also used to use the word 'scribe' instead of 'write' and i'm not even joking! Mind you, they did scribe with a quill and pot of ink on parchment.

Wrong type of observer you say? Nah, there are loads of good observers out there it's probably just that correcting or getting rid of the annoying ones is too difficult.

daz6215 wrote:There is probably some schools using a more common sense approach to some elements providing the input doesn't affect the output and safety is not compromised. Trying to change someone's natural style can sometimes adversely have an effect on their performance, so maybe not being too dogmatic about theories and principles that were implemented when vehicles were very different isn't such a bad thing!

It's a good thing, but then I would say that.

Rick101 wrote:I always found it strange that some observers would place great importance on what seem to be very minor things, pull push and thumb position being one of them.

Raising the point that Roadcraft also talks about rotational steering is often met with agitation and annoyance.

I sometimes question whether we have the right type of people as observers.

Maybe so, but to be fair we should remember that they are unpaid volunteers; not highly trained and highly paid professionals.

That reminds me: I wonder if I, as a poor OAP, could scrounge a bit of assistance from SD sometime....

vonhosen wrote:

jcochrane wrote:

Rick101 wrote:I always found it strange that some observers would place great importance on what seem to be very minor things, pull push and thumb position being one of them.

Raising the point that Roadcraft also talks about rotational steering is often met with agitation and annoyance.

I sometimes question whether we have the right type of people as observers.

6 of us on this forum were invited to a meeting some time ago with IAM Examiners and were met with this same attitude including that Roadcraft only allows holding the steering wheel at 10-2.

You need to get your examiners from a wider experience base/background.

I'm increasingly of that view. I think the uncritical imitation of a particular subsection of police drivers (i.e. old ones) is holding things back.

Mark Lewis I AM Director of Standards has said that an early output of his current standards review will be an examiner training programme.

TripleS wrote:

Rick101 wrote:I always found it strange that some observers would place great importance on what seem to be very minor things, pull push and thumb position being one of them.

Raising the point that Roadcraft also talks about rotational steering is often met with agitation and annoyance.

I sometimes question whether we have the right type of people as observers.

Maybe so, but to be fair we should remember that they are unpaid volunteers; not highly trained and highly paid professionals.

They may do it for fun but that doesn't mean it's acceptable to give poor training. There are many observers out there, instructing people to drive a certain way which is often not correct or even safe.

I use the word instructed as however much you dance round the observer title, they are often giving instructions on how you should drive, and if you don't do it their way, you are wrong.

I know the answer to this will be, find a better observer and i know there are good ones out there, my point is, you shouldn't have to go searching for them. If they are qualified to observe, they should be competent to do so.

waremark wrote:Mark Lewis I AM Director of Standards has said that an early output of his current standards review will be an examiner training programme.

What does that mean though?

A training programme because they aren't all doing it the one true way?

OR

A training programme because they are input focused as opposed to output focused?

vonhosen wrote:

waremark wrote:output focused?

I like that term.

It shouldn't matter what you do in the input phase, as long the output is what conforms to AD standards.

You should be allowed to have the chair on the roof and drive around whilst upside down (within the car, not the car on its roof, pedants) if you like, and it should not make a jot of a difference, as long the outcome is clearly to AD standards.

TheInsanity1234 wrote:It shouldn't matter what you do in the input phase, as long the output is what conforms to AD standards.

You should be allowed to have the chair on the roof and drive around whilst upside down (within the car, not the car on its roof, pedants) if you like, and it should not make a jot of a difference, as long the outcome is clearly to AD standards.

sort of

yes, the outcome is important - but as AD is a journey and there is always more to learn / further to go on that journey, the methodology can be better or worse in how it sets you up for further learning - so the Mr Bean style driving on the roof might give you AD standards in one thing - but not help later on as you develop further!

Alasdair

akirk wrote: the Mr Bean style driving on the roof might give you AD standards in one thing - but not help later on as you develop further!

Alasdair

Would give you some great unobstructed visibility though...

jcochrane wrote:

Rick101 wrote:I always found it strange that some observers would place great importance on what seem to be very minor things, pull push and thumb position being one of them.

Raising the point that Roadcraft also talks about rotational steering is often met with agitation and annoyance.

I sometimes question whether we have the right type of people as observers.

6 of us on this forum were invited to a meeting some time ago with IAM Examiners and were met with this same attitude including that Roadcraft only allows holding the steering wheel at 10-2.

It can't be as prescriptive 'cos my Rospa examiner and I agreed on my last but one test that 9-3 was more balanced.
Having the "right people" as observers is pretty impossible - they are volunteers. If my experience is anything to go by, your musings are well-placed: I was ready to eject mine from the outset but I bit my lip and limited my sessions with him to just 2 or 3, as I recall.

Just in case anyone hasn't remembered, here is the original post!

Police drivers.

I have yet to see one driving in the manner prescribed by Roadcraft.

The over-the-shoulder shots betray thumbs and crossed hands. No PP visible.

Comments?

I understood that police drivers were instructed in accordance with the contents of Roadcraft.

I merely was interested in the fact that, on TV, they seem not to at least insofar as wheel discipline.

Talk about thread drift!

Rick101 wrote:I always found it strange that some observers would place great importance on what seem to be very minor things... thumb position being one of them.

Kimosabe wrote:I chuckled when told by an observer to hold the gearstick with my thumb down when pushing it away and thumb up when pulling it towards.... "because it's safer".

Was it that this suggestion is a detail of an input where the output was apparently just fine, or the lack of a convincing argument to support it that frustrated/tickled you?

I ask because I've had the same advice, but more convincingly it seems, from two very prominent sources. One of whom dropped white suited TV anonymity to write a book recently...

Graham Wright wrote:Just in case anyone hasn't remembered, here is the original post!

Police drivers.

I have yet to see one driving in the manner prescribed by Roadcraft.

The over-the-shoulder shots betray thumbs and crossed hands. No PP visible.

Comments?

I understood that police drivers were instructed in accordance with the contents of Roadcraft.

I merely was interested in the fact that, on TV, they seem not to at least insofar as wheel discipline.

Talk about thread drift!

Are you surprised by what you see?

I'm not surprised by what you see.