ADUK Archive

Graham Wright wrote:

akirk wrote:do all traffic schools teach only pull-push? roadcraft is not that strict!

Alasdair

It was written by a policeman! It was either Colonel T E St. Johnson or Geoffrey Palfrey (?) who were (I think) Chief Constables of Lancon.

Doubtless, someone will correct me.

To the best of my recollection , when the metropolitan police became motorised in the early 20th century and started pursuing bad guys , they were equipped with the fastest cars available , because that was what some of the bad guys had too , only without any formal training the crash rate was alarming !

Someone decided to go to one of the prominent racing drivers of the day : The Earl of Cottenham , and it was he who devised 'The System of Car Control' and ( I thought ? ) wrote the first version of Roadcraft ?

Oh , re this 'thumbs up/thumbs down' stuff : when I originally did my AD training , back in the mid 70's , at various levels , initially with IAM observers , later with instructors from Tulliallan , the teaching was that the gear lever has a ball shaped knob on top ( I know most now don't ) so cup your hand firmly over the top of it and do this every time ; no fancy stuff holding it one way for certain shifts and another for others , and absolutely no fingertip stuff . The examiners back then wanted to see consistency with the same grip used every time .

Although I seldom drive manuals now , I've yet to find a gear lever that you can't take a firm grip over the top of and use all the time ; it worked equally well for column gear change as for floor change , several of my classic cars having been column change ( just sold the last one 3 months ago ) .

Pontoneer wrote:Oh , re this 'thumbs up/thumbs down' stuff : when I originally did my AD training , back in the mid 70's , at various levels , initially with IAM observers , later with instructors from Tulliallan , the teaching was that the gear lever has a ball shaped knob on top ( I know most now don't ) so cup your hand firmly over the top of it and do this every time ; no fancy stuff holding it one way for certain shifts and another for others , and absolutely no fingertip stuff . The examiners back then wanted to see consistency with the same grip used every time .

Although I seldom drive manuals now , I've yet to find a gear lever that you can't take a firm grip over the top of and use all the time ; it worked equally well for column gear change as for floor change , several of my classic cars having been column change ( just sold the last one 3 months ago ) .

On the ball shaped gear knob it was recommended to hold as you say and additionally move the hand around the knob to point the palm at the gear you wanted to select. Easier to do than described. It worked well as it also does with the modern designs. The thinking was that the hand was less likely to slip off during the change and discouraged gripping with the fingers in what was called a "claw grip". In the "palming" technique the fingers fell lightly round the gear knob.

Graham Wright wrote:Just in case anyone hasn't remembered, here is the original post!

Police drivers.

I have yet to see one driving in the manner prescribed by Roadcraft.

The over-the-shoulder shots betray thumbs and crossed hands. No PP visible.

Comments?

I understood that police drivers were instructed in accordance with the contents of Roadcraft.

I merely was interested in the fact that, on TV, they seem not to at least insofar as wheel discipline.

Talk about thread drift!

Police driving is a tool to carry out your job, the same as the vehicle. Learning will always evolve and the same as a plumber been taught how to solder pipe at college, will then develop their own way to do it.
Does it make it less safe that the electrician binds his cables in a different way from how he was taught during his training?
The computer programmer who finds a more efficient way that suits him better from the way he was taught at university?
It's like the Full Monty movie when there watching Flashdance and the chap starts slagging off the dancers welding technique, "that's all to cock, that will never work, she's doing it all wrong"
If it works for the driver and the outcome is safe and efficient then why would the driver not take that route?
We're human and will find the quickest and easiest (laziest) route to solve the problem even if we're taught the long way round, we're always looking for a shortcut to get there.

playtent wrote:
Police driving is a tool to carry out your job, the same as the vehicle. Learning will always evolve and the same as a plumber been taught how to solder pipe at college, will then develop their own way to do it.
Does it make it less safe that the electrician binds his cables in a different way from how he was taught during his training?
The computer programmer who finds a more efficient way that suits him better from the way he was taught at university?
It's like the Full Monty movie when there watching Flashdance and the chap starts slagging off the dancers welding technique, "that's all to cock, that will never work, she's doing it all wrong"
If it works for the driver and the outcome is safe and efficient then why would the driver not take that route?
We're human and will find the quickest and easiest (laziest) route to solve the problem even if we're taught the long way round, we're always looking for a shortcut to get there.

Well and honestly said. I know many Police drivers who would support what you say. Nice to see you back.

Thanks John,

People think that because they do it for a job it's also their hobby and passion, which for the vast majority it's not.

Other than like minded people from forums like this, most people are watching the job of the police officer, the chases, the arrests and the attitude of the people they deal with.

There not watching to see if the driver uses the correct steering method in every situation.

The enthusiast on the other hand is watching every move that the officer makes ready to compare what they do as an enthusiast to what the officer does as part of their everyday role.

Driving gets you to the job, hopefully safely and in good time so the officer can then use their years of skills to deal with it appropriately.

The days of the old school traffic officer is gone. Traffic officers are proactive police officers who deny criminals the use of the road. The face of Policing has changed over the last 10 years and the only people talking about class 1 drivers and TrafPol are people on forums like this.
Fleet services want the best value cars to run, traffic depts want the most proactive officers to work for them. Where driving comes into that is different now than it was 10'years ago and miles away from where it was 20 years ago.

The few seconds which surprised me were with a car edging forwards at a junction. No hands on the wheel, driver screwing up a sweet or chewing gum wrapper and throwing it iut the window . . .

Amazing how easily people fofget cameras!

They do film 100's of hours of footage to make a 1hr show.
Put a camera with me or you for 8 hours a day when the focus of your concentration is not your driving, but the job you have to do when you get there and we'd forget about the camera as well.

playtent wrote:They do film 100's of hours of footage to make a 1hr show.
Put a camera with me or you for 8 hours a day when the focus of your concentration is not your driving, but the job you have to do when you get there and we'd forget about the camera as well.

Indeed. Oddly, though, I've been driving for 38 years (not without stopping, obviously ) and I've never thrown litter out of the window. Perhaps I should camera-up more often?

Horse wrote:Indeed. Oddly, though, I've been driving for 38 years (not without stopping, obviously ) and I've never thrown litter out of the window. Perhaps I should camera-up more often?

Perhaps you should have joined the Police and you could have led the crusade against these wilful littering Police officers as part of the Professional Standards Dept.

My mum always said, "do as I say, not as I do"

I didn't listen but you obviously did.

playtent wrote:...

Driving gets you to the job, hopefully safely and in good time so the officer can then use their years of skills to deal with it appropriately.

How many years of inexperience do the public have to suffer before it has the benefit of an experienced officer capable of doing their job appropriately?

I haven't seen the footage being discussed but having read the above i'm more concerned with police officers chewing gum in view of the public. If it's nicotine gum then it could be excused.

MGF wrote:
How many years of inexperience do the public have to suffer before it has the benefit of an experienced officer capable of doing their job appropriately?

I haven't seen the footage being discussed but having read the above i'm more concerned with police officers chewing gum in view of the public. If it's nicotine gum then it could be excused.

Dave,

In my case around 20 years but for most I'd say 10!

When have you ever met or heard of an officer capable of doing their job appropriately regardless of experience?

I haven't seen the footage either but I dare say the officer was chewing gum. Chewing gum calms the nerves of even the most highly strung officer!

Carbon Based wrote:

Rick101 wrote:I always found it strange that some observers would place great importance on what seem to be very minor things... thumb position being one of them.

Kimosabe wrote:I chuckled when told by an observer to hold the gearstick with my thumb down when pushing it away and thumb up when pulling it towards.... "because it's safer".

Was it that this suggestion is a detail of an input where the output was apparently just fine, or the lack of a convincing argument to support it that frustrated/tickled you?

I ask because I've had the same advice, but more convincingly it seems, from two very prominent sources. One of whom dropped white suited TV anonymity to write a book recently...

Which way up my opposing thumb points when holding a gearstick, IMO is to AD what etiquette is to starving to death, because you don't have the right spoon with which to eat your consomme before being permitted to continue eating the next course, to paraphrase Germaine Greer. It's just yet more making something out of nothing, for it's own sake.

I don't doubt for a moment that there are people who would argue that one isn't changing gear safely or properly unless the stick is grasped in a particular way, but I'd argue that the origins of this blurb can be traced back to a third-hand anecdote of someone who once had to be told and therefore everyone needs to be told. Or to a time when the handbrake on a hose drawn cart needed explaining. It's playing to the lowest common denominator from a time when most people didn't have cars or carts.

White suit - Martin Bell? If Martin Bell OBE wants to argue that thumb orientation vs safe gear stick manners is a major concern, who am I to argue.

Kimosabe: Hand orientation is certainly not the most important of AD techniques (or even in the top 20 in my view) but it's still worth doing and could make a difference in being able to reliably select the gear you are after...particularly in some vehicles. I think it's a better way to hold the gearstick - with no disadvantage I'm aware of, so I do it.

playtent wrote: Chewing gum calms the nerves of even the most highly strung officer!

If he was nervous while sat in a queue, I wonder how a pursuit would affect him?

However, my issue wasn't the foodstuff.