Some data...

[Horse]

Hugh/'huge'?

Changing Hugh Noblett to Huge Noblett sounded slightly filthy. From there is was a mere step away to 'Massive'.

I wasn't sure, but if there had been any further comment was going to post this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibAe8ArmvwY

Oh whoops, I went and posted it

[Astraist]

Too often I see people fixating on an apex rather than watching the limit point as it moves around the corner. The less thinking you do and the more you let the unconscious do the heavy lifting for you, the better it gets. If I'm coaching, I distill it down to a few things:

There is also the crossview. Even when the bend has a perfectly open field of vision and even on a closed track, using a crossview usually helps drivers to (subconciously) picture the bend in their mind at a "bird's eye" point of view, and plan their lines much better.

I tend to coach that once the limit point starts to race away, there is little point at looking to it. Looking up to the straight or following bend usually helps drivers carry progress more smoothly ahead.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Cross views can get you into trouble, too, as Octy_Ross will attest

[Astraist]

Cross views can get you into trouble, too, as Octy_Ross will attest

Of course, it's typically cross-view well before the bend, imagining the corner and the desired line and apex, chasing the limit point up to the apex and then lifting your view up towards the next bend.

On the track, it tends to involve reference points for braking (sometimes), steering, apex and track-out, and a good driver usually looks two or more reference points ahead of the car.

This all is of course me trying to describe what the driver does at an unconscious level. While coaching this tends to surface to the conscious level and is than honed.

[Gromit37]

Not addressed to anybody in particular:

Just drive the damned car according to what feels secure and smooth, and have done with it.

Alternatively you could analyse the whole thing to death, and still never be happy with what you're doing.

Best wishes all,
Dave - blissfully ignorant.

Don't expect much do you Dave? I can hardly move the car forward in a straight line without kangarooing or bashing in to solid objects. Smooth and secure just aren't options. You bloomin' northerners are driving experts because you spend all day avoiding (or possibly chasing) sheep on all the roads

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Cross views can get you into trouble, too, as Octy_Ross will attest

Of course, it's typically cross-view well before the bend, imagining the corner and the desired line and apex, chasing the limit point up to the apex and then lifting your view up towards the next bend.

The difficulty I was alluding to is where a bend is surrounded by completely flat land, and the cross view distracts the driver from looking at the actual bend topology until it's too late. The flat surroundings also rob the driver of the limit point for speed assessment, making it difficult to "imagine the corner and the desired line and apex", and leading to the possibility of entering the bend far too fast (at least once - the lesson is soon learnt).

[Astraist]

Exactly why peeking at the crossview (however limited it usually is) is best done well ahead of the bend, so it does not interfere with chasing the limit point into the bend.

[7db]

Serious Q: using the trail braking, how is body roll and grip managed at the transition to drive?

I've been playing more with this recently.

There's a period in the corner where you really aren't doing much at all -- the steering has taken a set (following Dave's steps, you've turned in enough until you've got to the line), and the braking has dropped to just a trailing throttle - the car is settling back onto its haunches off the braking: the reduction in the braking is what settles the weight, not the start of the acceleration. In a long enough corner it's nice to drift up to a neutral throttle to counteract drag, or if it opens up sooner then that can be a rising throttle.

The weight seems to just flow backwards as long as this transition is done subtlely and in line with decreased braking effort: you can't just jump on the throttle like you can for a more classical approach. I've not noticed a lot of roll change: this is probably dominated by the cornering.

Grip shouldn't be much of an issue provided things are managed smoothly -- the power is going on at the slowest point and the move from standing on the nose to being nicely balanced increases the overall grip. The crisis of grip has already happened at turn-in.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Aha, yes, the "nothing" moment. Thanks DB, well described. Perhaps we should send Horse some articles to read from last Autumn.

[TripleS]

ignorant.

Fixed that for you...

Ah, getting to the simple unadorned truth, as usual.

Actually, I agree - it's all about getting the feel rather than following some mad set of rules (for which the provisos occupy 5 times as much paper as the original rules).

Oh that's nice. I was expecting to receive some flak for what I said, but maybe my ignorance is less than total after all. A bit of support from an expert source [/flannel mode] is quite reassuring.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Cross views can get you into trouble, too, as Octy_Ross will attest

What was that, if one may ask? Concentrating on the long range view, and overlooking something nearer? That's something I've done on the odd occasion.

[TripleS]

OK Dave, I probably missed something obvious, but I've got to ask... why the "huge" and "massive" monikers for Mr N?

I'm trying to figure out this cornering lark by using the accelerator earlier, steering less etc as per your advice. Feels great when you get it right (assuming I EVER get it right). You say it took you six years, but for the life of me, I STILL can't get round slow, tight corners without what feels like steering too much or not getting the steering off quickly enough. I may be getting on the power too soon, entering too fast... who knows. It's plain embarrassing for such a simple manoeuvre.

Well, to me that does sound an odd problem to have, unless one were to be a new driver and still struggling a bit with some of the basics, which clearly is not your situation.

Is your difficulty being caused because you drive a fairly powerful, or at least pretty lively car, whereas my low powered car simply doesn't confront me with these problems?

[TripleS]

Hugh/'huge'?

Changing Hugh Noblett to Huge Noblett sounded slightly filthy. From there is was a mere step away to 'Massive'.

I wasn't sure, but if there had been any further comment was going to post this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibAe8ArmvwY

Oh whoops, I went and posted it

Ha! Well, unlike our young friend in the clip, I drive a low powered car quietly and at restrained speeds in built-up areas, and therefore, logic suggests.... I am very fortunate.

[TripleS]

Not addressed to anybody in particular:

Just drive the damned car according to what feels secure and smooth, and have done with it.

Alternatively you could analyse the whole thing to death, and still never be happy with what you're doing.

Best wishes all,
Dave - blissfully ignorant.

Don't expect much do you Dave? I can hardly move the car forward in a straight line without kangarooing or bashing in to solid objects. Smooth and secure just aren't options. You bloomin' northerners are driving experts because you spend all day avoiding (or possibly chasing) sheep on all the roads

True, I've certainly had my problems with sheep in the past.

In the 1960s, on the A171 between Teesside and Whitby, the moorland sheep were roaming free and often being hit by traffic, and the same problem occurred to a lesser extent between Whitby and Scarborough. The farmers used to complain bitterly about their sheep losses, but they kept them on the cheap and didn't seem to bother looking after the animals, so that was the result. In due course fencing was installed, so the problem was largely solved, but you've still got to be a bit wary though; the blighters are quite good at finding weak spots in the fencing!

[TripleS]

Cross views can get you into trouble, too, as Octy_Ross will attest

Of course, it's typically cross-view well before the bend, imagining the corner and the desired line and apex, chasing the limit point up to the apex and then lifting your view up towards the next bend.

The difficulty I was alluding to is where a bend is surrounded by completely flat land, and the cross view distracts the driver from looking at the actual bend topology until it's too late. The flat surroundings also rob the driver of the limit point for speed assessment, making it difficult to "imagine the corner and the desired line and apex", and leading to the possibility of entering the bend far too fast (at least once - the lesson is soon learnt).

Ah, thanks. That answers my question.