2018 I give up observing !

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

It's easy to tell you haven't done any observing, Gareth. The associate who actually opens their book is such a rarity that observers have given up expecting it. It's a pleasant surprise when you get one, though.

[Gareth]

I don't think you can really see it as self-study

It certainly appeared to be self-study when I went to my local RoADA group last century - although it started with a series of lectures, (in a lecture theatre, so ADI regulations wouldn't have applied). We were told to read and re-read until we understood the course material in conjuction with information given during the lectures, and then we were meant to practice by ourselves, with a series of observed drives during or after which we'd get feedback on how we were doing. The lectures were probably needed because the course book was (blue) Roadcraft.

No-one trained me in the car in the way one would expect if paying an ADI. For that I subsequently spent real money with a real ADI.

These days, IAM associates get a book which contains the entire course material, presented in a fashion to be suitable for self-study by most people. This is part of the effort by the IAM to get a consistent experience for associates - by providing a book that they hope is easily assimilated by anyone hoping to take their practical exam, thereby placing less reliance of volunteer observers of variable knowledge, experience and aptitude.

[ROG]

PAID instruction is where the law makes the difference

No need to be an ADI to teach a family member or friend etc when not being paid to do it

Observer/tutors do not get paid

[akirk]

A simple way of distinguishing:
- will the IAM allow you to buy the book and take the exam - or just book in for the exam alone?
- if you use the IAM for anything other than material / exam, how is it described?

not 100% sure on the first, though their toptips suggest that you could just do the exam...
however it also goes on to say:

We provide our time to coach and help you to pass the advanced test.

http://www.iam.org.uk/images/stories/Me ... optips.pdf
coaching = instruction?

ref. paid instruction - I think that is a slight red herring - you are paying the IAM to have access to the local group - your skills for life course includes free membership of the local group for 1 year and they are clear that to continue after that requires a renewal of that payment - so the observers themselves might not be paid, but the associate is definitely paying to access that instruction... I think the question is more around whether it is instruction or just observation...

I think there will come a time when the IAM will require observers to be ADI level (which may kill / change IAM) - the associate is clearly paying for access to a course which moves them forwards in skills / ability - however you dress it up they are paying for instruction...

Alasdair

[Gareth]

A simple way of distinguishing:
- will the IAM allow you to buy the book and take the exam - or just book in for the exam alone?

Yes, a person can buy the book separately, and buy an exam separately, (although they don't make it easy for people to find out they can just buy the exam).

- if you use the IAM for anything other than material / exam, how is it described?

They try quite hard to point potential associates at local groups by mainly pushing the package, because otherwise the number of available observers would be likely to fall.

They also sell an intensive course, for a lot more money, where you spend time being taught by an ADI in preparation for taking the exam.

[Gareth]

I think there will come a time when the IAM will require observers to be ADI level (which may kill / change IAM) - the associate is clearly paying for access to a course which moves them forwards in skills / ability - however you dress it up they are paying for instruction...

If that happens the IAM will be no more.

I wonder how significant it is that each of the local groups is an independant charity that has chosen to affiliate itself with the IAM, rather than being a local branch of the IAM.

[ROG]

Observers are not there to instruct in the legal definition - they are there to advise

As no payment in any kind is imparted to the observer then that is legally not being paid

Anyone can try to spin it how they like but the law is clear on this

[Gareth]

Observers are not there to instruct in the legal definition - they are there to advise

As no payment in any kind is imparted to the observer then that is legally not being paid

Anyone can try to spin it how they like but the law is clear on this

I am convinced you are incorrect; my reading is that if someone pays, no matter to whom, then the law applies if they receive instruction, but not if it's a self-study course.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Surely if there were really an issue the DSA would have, at some point in the last 60 years, taken it up with the IAM or even taken it to court. Similarly with RoADAR. Of course, that's not to say they won't, at some point in the future.

[akirk]

Surely if there were really an issue the DSA would have, at some point in the last 60 years, taken it up with the IAM or even taken it to court. Similarly with RoADAR. Of course, that's not to say they won't, at some point in the future.

I suspect they haven't because:
- what IAM / RoADAR do is wholly beneficial and in line with what the DSA / Government wants to see
- if they did they would probably kill off both organisations
- if they made a decision they would have to either accept the situation officially (which opens whole other cans of worms with others who 'teach') or clamp down which is negative...

best to bumble along pretending it doesn't happen

I have been involved with 4x4 Response and the training there is all outsourced to those running BORDA courses - which are a) professionally run and b) off-road - to run training within your own organisation is full of difficulties

Alasdair

[Horse]

Surely if there were really an issue the DSA would have, at some point in the last 60 years, taken it up with the IAM or even taken it to court. Similarly with RoADAR. Of course, that's not to say they won't, at some point in the future.

I agree. If it were a major problem then I would expect the DSA to do something about it. Of course, that doesn't mean that they don't think it's a problem, only that they don't think it worthwhile to make the point. They know it's wrong and have said as much; they just don't seem to want to get involved.

Let's not forget that, to a certain extent, they have 'done something about it' with certain aspect of the non-road driving industry.

I can't remember the details and what the final compromise was, but IIRC the off-road driving schools came under pressure.

Perhaps the introduction of the new Observer quals are another compromise?

[MGF]

Is access to observers in return for the purchase of SFL a commercial arrangement? That is likely to be the approach of a court having to decide whether or not observers need to be ADIs.

Charities are involved in commercial activity to raise funds but a purposive approach to interpreting the legislation may well give the court sufficient elbow room to answer the question in the negative.

[akirk]

I suspect that whether or not it is a charity is irrelevant - the course is marketed commercially, with wording that clearly shows that you are paying cash for an end result of improvement / instructions / etc.

if I set up a charity with the purpose of bringing the ability to drive to those who could not otherwise afford it (relief of poverty is charitable) and charged only £10 to learn to drive I suspect I would still need to have ADI qualifications...

access to observers is clearly commercial - the IAM website spells out that you gain access through membership of the local group - the first year of which is included in your initial fee, and after which you must pay further - so there is a clear tie between the two...

Alasdair

[Horse]

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... nstructors

Anyone keen and wants to read 4.2 and its linked National Standard proposal to see whether that tallies with the IAM's revised system?

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Whether local groups are a charity or not is entirely down to them and how much admin headache they want to undertake for the sake of claiming back some tax. We're taking our Group through the process at the moment, but it's taken a long time to get to the point where we believe it's actually worth it.