Scaring your passengers ?

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby jcochrane » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:45 am


StressedDave wrote:
Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Is your face hurting again, Dave? :P

Like you wouldn't believe - it's doing the orbit of the right eye this morning. It's now spread to the other side - there's a particular point over my left eyebrow which, if I touch it, causes significant pain to the jawline. Needless to say, after the original accidental discovery, I'm not touching it...

In any case, my post was a lot politer than it could have been. I'm not sure if my swearing ban counts in the typed word or not.

Sorry to hear this, Dave, not pleasant and I hope it eases off for you. I would agree with Mr C-W in that I don't find Paul's driving at all scary. I can see that many might find it exciting but being able to anticipate what he will do has a diluting effect.

There are many good or very good Class 1 police drivers about and a few are exceptional but there are also some terrible ones. As you say to assume the Class 1 ticket guarantees an exceptional driver is just not the case.

To expand on what makes the difference between scary and non scary for me. I remember Paul saying how, on his advanced course they were discouraged from exceeding 8/10ths of their ability. At this level the drive will feel controlled and precise with the feeling that the driver is driving comfortably within their ability whilst driving quickly. At 9/10ths. it starts to become a little edgy with small errors creeping in. A little less smooth/balanced, slightly hurried gear changes, small errors of judgement for entry speed into some bends, steering a little late and more hurried and a general feeling that this driver is now pushing themselves towards the edge of their ability. As the level moves towards 10/10ths there is a growing sense that there is little margin for error or safety in hand. That's when I feel myself getting toward the edge of my seat as I try and be one step ahead. Over 10/10ths and I would rather be some where else than in this car with this driver.

The only time I start to feel scared is when the driver exceeds their ability. The standard or level of the drive is not the criteria but the individuals ability level.
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Postby Silk » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:00 pm


jcochrane wrote:There are many good or very good Class 1 police drivers about and a few are exceptional but there are also some terrible ones. As you say to assume the Class 1 ticket guarantees an exceptional driver is just not the case.


Perhaps it's down to the Police Course being all about a requirement for the job rather than a personal achievement.

You do what you need to do for the test and no more.
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Postby martine » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:52 pm


Silk wrote:Perhaps it's down to the Police Course being all about a requirement for the job rather than a personal achievement.

You do what you need to do for the test and no more.

Yes and it's probably a case of slightly different priorities...would I be right in thinking some of the subtleties of AD are tempered when they are on an 'urgent assistance to a colleague' - where perhaps extreme progress becomes slightly 'ragged'? Or is it all as seamless and near perfect as when they are on test? (probably a rhetorical question).

I think for some police advanced, driving is a means to an end and not something to be perfected and executed with finesse - or am I doing them a disfavour?
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:50 pm


Oh dear, what have I started? :roll:

I did not mean to start off the traditional Class 1 bashing fest that breaks out every time someone suggests there might be several shades of grey in their schooling and talent. Can we just cut playtent some slack and get back to the thread topic?
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Postby Horse » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:09 pm


martine wrote:
Silk wrote:Perhaps it's down to the Police Course being all about a requirement for the job rather than a personal achievement.

You do what you need to do for the test and no more.

Yes and it's probably a case of slightly different priorities...would I be right in thinking some of the subtleties of AD are tempered when they are on an 'urgent assistance to a colleague' - where perhaps extreme progress becomes slightly 'ragged'? Or is it all as seamless and near perfect as when they are on test? (probably a rhetorical question).

I think for some police advanced, driving is a means to an end and not something to be perfected and executed with finesse - or am I doing them a disfavour?


A friend was told, before his final drive, that there were two ways of achieving a Class 1: smooth safe but absolutely flawless, or ragged - but very, very fast.
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Postby playtent » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:18 am


Gents,

My mom never overtakes anything at all. She prides herself that in 50 years of driving she has never had the need to overtake any moving vehicle. She never travels over 45mph, refuses to drive on the motorway and won't drive in the dark. She can see no point in rushing anywhere and when I said she has a new Roomster, I probably misled you. She does have a Roomster which she got 6 months ago. She hasn't driven it as yet because she is not use to it. My father drives her everywhere and if she needs to drive herself she uses her old car, a 2002 Vauxhall Astra 1.7d.
She does intend on driving it when she's ready and confident to have a go but as yet she's still getting used to it!

Now my father is a scary driver, he will spot the international space station in earths orbit and point it out and yet miss the parked car with its door open. Admittedly that was a couple of years ago now and it was an easy repair, just needed a new door and some hinges. My mum made a vaild point as to why would you have your door open into the road and not expect to get it smashed off.

I would happily guarantee any member of this forum that their driving would scare my mum.
I obviously do not drive like I would on AD day with my mum in the car and have never done so, as tempted as I have been in the past with her whining in my ear like a worn out wheel bearing. I don't need to give her a commentary as she likes to give me one with the benefit of her 50 years driving experience. She likes to point out that every car is a danger to me and what would I do if the driver of the car on the other side of the road was drunk and swerved into me. I explain that by driving quicker, then we might have already driven by the said drunk before he swerves onto our side of the road and hits me and then they hit someone else. That's wasted on her and I'm selfish, she would rather have the drunk hit us in my big unnecessary car than some other poor unsuspecting driver in a little car as forewarned is forearmed and as we are expecting it, it will be less of a shock. Not to mention that the little car driver may not be able to afford to repair their car, hence the reason they drive a little car. Very thoughtful!

With regards to the Police argument about driving, it's a means to an end for many many drivers. Hence in general they pass and never practice it again until their next re-test. For a small minority who pride themselves on improving their driving yet further, they will continue to develop their skills and hence on occasion if they are not already a 1 will have a refresher and improve their grade from a 2 to a 1.
To suggest that all 1's are great is the same as saying all 2's are crap and all civilian drivers have no idea about proper driving as they have never done it under pressure, utter rubbish.

I have driven with drivers who have scared me and are Police advanced. I have driven with civilian members of the prestige club who have surprised me with how good they are and others who have shocked me with how far they are away from what I had already experienced.

It's horses for courses, if you pride yourself on your driving and practice regularly because it's your hobby then you should be a better driver than someone who doesn't. If you do it because you have to at work then every taxi driver and white van man should be ace.

It's amazing how many Police drivers are 1's when you speak to them, or would have been a 1 was it not for the fact that they didn't drive mad enough. Less than 10% of the drivers in my force get a 1. So it stands to reason all these 1's out there that many people have driven with probably aren't.

I've heard the old comment that you only get a 1 if your fast and crazy and Its rubbish. You get a 1 if you have driven well throughout your 4 week course, improving and learning as you go with an enthusiasm for driving and most probably a natural ability. Then on your final test you live upto the expectation your instructor has of you. You won't fluke a 1 on the day, the same as you won't get a 1 if you have a bad final drive.
Why so many people seem to jump on the wagon about Police drivers and how good is this class or how good is that surprises me. It's true that it's a job to the majority and it's also true that unless you have done the course, then you can't really know whether you have the required ability or not. Driving at 60mph and getting everything just right on a road that you could be doing a 110mph on is a bit different. Not to say any of you couldn't do it, it's just for a different purpose.
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Postby jcochrane » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:07 am


Oh lordy, sounds like your Mum does not make for a good passenger. My mum is 95 today but I don't have the problems you do. No she does not nod off, just the opposite, sharp as needles she is. :)
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Postby gannet » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:16 pm


Mainly on drive days I say to my passengers 'Please shout if I do something you are not happy with, or you find scary' As I'd rather deal with it there and then.

As yet no-one has said a thing, well unless you count mrs gannet who simply likes me to slow down a bit so she can see more of the scenery flashing swiftly by...

I go very much along with jcochranes view of the tenths - the further up the scale someone drives the more uncomfortable I get...
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Postby jont » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:36 pm


gannet wrote:I go very much along with jcochranes view of the tenths - the further up the scale someone drives the more uncomfortable I get...

I think I'm more with db. I don't care (too much) where on the scale they drive, so long as they are consistent. It's inconsistency that's worrying...
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Postby jcochrane » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:49 pm


jont wrote:
gannet wrote:I go very much along with jcochranes view of the tenths - the further up the scale someone drives the more uncomfortable I get...

I think I'm more with db. I don't care (too much) where on the scale they drive, so long as they are consistent. It's inconsistency that's worrying...

I believe that quote was mine and referred to in my later post as more "erratic" but I find there is a link between the two. :)

One sure give away that a driver is approaching 10/10ths is when the right foot hovers between brake and throttle on the approach to a country bend. To me that displays a degree of uncertainty in approach speed judgement and I begin to worry.
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:16 pm


jcochrane wrote:One sure give away that a driver is approaching 10/10ths is when the right foot hovers between brake and throttle on the approach to a country bend. To me that displays a degree of uncertainty in approach speed judgement and I begin to worry.

Interesting because you were with me in the car when Andy Morrison suggested that technique to me. Cover the brake in case you need it - what's to be scared of?

I probably don't use it as much as I used to, but it was a useful technique in earlier stages of my development.
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Postby jcochrane » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:29 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:
jcochrane wrote:One sure give away that a driver is approaching 10/10ths is when the right foot hovers between brake and throttle on the approach to a country bend. To me that displays a degree of uncertainty in approach speed judgement and I begin to worry.

Interesting because you were with me in the car when Andy Morrison suggested that technique to me. Cover the brake in case you need it - what's to be scared of?

I probably don't use it as much as I used to, but it was a useful technique in earlier stages of my development.

I don't mean covering the brake, as Andy suggested, but rather when the foot hovers between the two uncertainly as to wheather braking is required or not. Like the foot goes to the brake without braking, then back to the throttle without using it, then back to the brake without using it etc. eventually they settle on one or the other and use it.

On most occasions after throttle lift off I cover the brake straight away as that is the most likely thing I will need to do next. Maybe I have not moved on much since that drive with Andy. :(
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:15 pm


Next time we drive together you can tell me if I'm doing it, Dave.
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Postby playtent » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:48 pm


StressedDave wrote:
Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Next time we drive together you can tell me if I'm doing it, Dave.

And vice-versa - I'm not immune to the phenomenon if I'm not concentrating... :roll:


Well they do say you don't have to be a good practitioner, to be a good teacher. 8)
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Postby playtent » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:22 pm


StressedDave wrote:FWIW, I don't develop a measure of trust - born out of sitting alongside people like Paul who demonstrated the one-size-fits-all approach of Police driver training. Not all Class I are exceptional.


I don't consider myself to be a one-size fits all driver. I think Von is a perfect example that one size certainly doesn't fit all in his approach.

I remember a drive out with a couple of forum members in their Focus ST. I took it nice and steady and demonstrated a thoughtful and measured approach to driving. I was then asked if I wouldn't mind driving a little more like they would expect for my background. I did as requested with a little more gusto and I believe I demonstrated that I could adapt my driving depending upon the circumstances and the passengers.
I never received all that much feedback at the time but neither of them were sick. The one unnamed member (Martine) did say that if I visited his IAM group it would generate some interesting questions. Make of that what you will. :)

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