ADUK Archive

Stephen wrote:If you want to learn them all [steering techniques] then go onto a track and get someone to show you and practice and see what benefit they hold or do not hold.

Only a police driver would suggest going on track to practice steering techniques other than PP. why this obsession with anything other than PP being fit only for the track, at least to start with, and the only place to practice it initially?

Only this week I had a new associate whose steering has been completed screwed up by instructors on a blue light emergency vehicle course. Steering was PP all the time, everywhere, but what made it terrible was that it was shuffle-shuffle everywhere. Steering was all over the place. Steering was as unsmooth and disjointed as it is possible to imagine. Even the course instructors were saying to the associate that the steering wasn't smooth, but had no way of resolving the problem, presumably because there was no nearby track to go and practice on! Not to put too fine a point on it the steering was a mess. well, it was a mess until we stopped the car and I suggested holding the steering wheel at a quarter to three, not ten to two, using fixed grip steering and concentrating on trying to achieve a single steering input to take us through the bend. Steering was utterly transformed. It is now accurate, smooth and with the car under much better control at all times. All this was achieved on the road in less than half an hour with other vehicles about and absolutely no drama.

PS: PP and rotational are still in the associate's tool box but are firmly in their place for use at speeds of less than 25mph.

Having seen a picture of forearms broken by an airbag, I have to admit it's not something I particularly want to happen, but I'm afraid I do cross my arms (gasp! and on the public road, too ) from time to time.

Terry Williams wrote:Speaking to CG a few months ago and he uses BGOL ( towards the end of the braking phase )
for left hand junctions. As mentioned in his DVD's

What realy annoys me with people like this who now admit to BGOL are so adamant that heel n toe is the ultimate sin. As has been said before it is only BGOL whilst having the means to rev match.

When you see CG please ask him how on earth he rev matches when he BGOL's. I don't accept the usual answer that is "I'm going so slowly it does not matter." There occasions where the speed can be quite high eg. a downhill bend.

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Having seen a picture of forearms broken by an airbag, I have to admit it's not something I particularly want to happen, but I'm afraid I do cross my arms (gasp! and on the public road, too ) from time to time.

There is a highly-advanced technique which can help avoid the broken arms (if you'd asked, I couldhave explained at the Newbury AD day), but I'll do my best here:

Don't cross your arms if the airbags might be triggered (eg potential head-on collision situation), so look ahead, think, plan, steer accordingly.

There. You may need to spend some time considering that and perhaps need some coaching

Thanks. Let me know when you're available and I'll book a coaching slot.

Horse wrote:

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Having seen a picture of forearms broken by an airbag, I have to admit it's not something I particularly want to happen, but I'm afraid I do cross my arms (gasp! and on the public road, too ) from time to time.

There is a highly-advanced technique which can help avoid the broken arms (if you'd asked, I couldhave explained at the Newbury AD day), but I'll do my best here:

Don't cross your arms if the airbags might be triggered (eg potential head-on collision situation), so look ahead, think, plan, steer accordingly.

There. You may need to spend some time considering that and perhaps need some coaching

or just don't crash - then you can cross your arms as much as you like!

Alasdair

Do we not now need some input from vonhosen?

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Having seen a picture of forearms broken by an airbag, I have to admit it's not something I particularly want to happen, but I'm afraid I do cross my arms (gasp! and on the public road, too ) from time to time.

Having seen my fair share as well, I still cross one arm over the wheel at times, considering two things:
Primary safety is more important than secondary safety.
Speeds at which steering inputs require crossing an arm are below the threshold for airbag inflation.

As a coach, as long as the car react obediently, it matters not whether the driver even discerns what different steering styles are or what BGOL is. With that said, I do introduce drivers to predictive steering, and personally I use it all of the time.

hir wrote:

Stephen wrote:If you want to learn them all [steering techniques] then go onto a track and get someone to show you and practice and see what benefit they hold or do not hold.

Only a police driver would suggest going on track to practice steering techniques other than PP. why this obsession with anything other than PP being fit only for the track, at least to start with, and the only place to practice it initially?

Only this week I had a new associate whose steering has been completed screwed up by instructors on a blue light emergency vehicle course. Steering was PP all the time, everywhere, but what made it terrible was that it was shuffle-shuffle everywhere. Steering was all over the place. Steering was as unsmooth and disjointed as it is possible to imagine. Even the course instructors were saying to the associate that the steering wasn't smooth, but had no way of resolving the problem, presumably because there was no nearby track to go and practice on! Not to put too fine a point on it the steering was a mess. well, it was a mess until we stopped the car and I suggested holding the steering wheel at a quarter to three, not ten to two, using fixed grip steering and concentrating on trying to achieve a single steering input to take us through the bend. Steering was utterly transformed. It is now accurate, smooth and with the car under much better control at all times. All this was achieved on the road in less than half an hour with other vehicles about and absolutely no drama.

PS: PP and rotational are still in the associate's tool box but are firmly in their place for use at speeds of less than 25mph.

Nope, bad instruction on your associate's course. Clue is in your description "shuffle shuffle", PP is easy, once mastered but with a student floundering would mean demonstration, perhaps that was missing?
Btw, I'd disagree, as I'm sure others might, with your PS.
As vonhosen has often preached and I'd have to agree, find your own way that provides the means to do what you have to do in a safe manner for you and all around you. That though means having mastered all the techniques so being able to know which best suits you in any situation.

WhoseGeneration wrote:Nope, bad instruction on your associate's course. Clue is in your description "shuffle shuffle", PP is easy, once mastered but with a student floundering would mean demonstration, perhaps that was missing?
Btw, I'd disagree, as I'm sure others might, with your PS.

I'd firmly agree with hir's PS. The issue, I find, is that some advocate PP for small steering deflections, and people then try to implement using small hand movements on the wheel. This seems to be exacerbated when they are encouraged to hold the wheel at ten-to-two, instead of the alternate quarter-to-three mentioned in Roadcraft.

WhoseGeneration wrote:Do we not now need some input from vonhosen?

No, since his theme nowadays is outputs

WhoseGeneration wrote:

hir wrote:PS: PP and rotational are still in the associate's tool box but are firmly in their place for use at speeds of less than 25mph.

Btw, I'd disagree, as I'm sure others might, with your PS.
As vonhosen has often preached and I'd have to agree, find your own way that provides the means to do what you have to do in a safe manner for you and all around you. That though means having mastered all the techniques so being able to know which best suits you in any situation.

I agree with vonhosen. The associate now knows which techniques suit him in any situation. As stated in my PS, for this associate the relevant situations for the application of PP and rotational steering happens to be below circa 25mph.

PS: I forgot to mention that during the half hour that I alluded to earlier he also mastered "big-bite" pull push which transformed his pull push technique. So, no more shuffle-shuffle plus the option of using techniques other than pull-push according to the situation he is confronted with, all in the space of half an hour. What's not to like?

People being taught to shuffle instead of big bites frustrates me so much that I wrote a dedicated thread about it some time ago. It should be grounds for taking away their ADI ticket.

hir wrote:...Steering was PP all the time, everywhere, but what made it terrible was that it was shuffle-shuffle everywhere.

So not PP then. Attempted PP might be a better description.

MGF wrote:

hir wrote:...Steering was PP all the time, everywhere, but what made it terrible was that it was shuffle-shuffle everywhere.

So not PP then. Attempted PP might be a better description.

The problem is if a 10-2 handhold is adopted then most bends require a little shuffle. 9-3 hold avoids this, fixed grip steering from a 9-3 hold without passing 12 is all that is required for all but the slow tight bends (for these PP may be needed) and meets the description of PP in Roadcraft. Many overlook that where Roadcraft describes the handhold it adds depending on the molding of the steering wheel. Most cars these days have moldings that encourage a 9-3 hold, possibly because this allows stalks and flappy paddles to be in reach of the fingers. I and others on the forum have sadly met IAM examiners who have either not read or do not understand this.