What has happened to all the roads in Surrey?

[Horse]

In other words, sadly, the IAM test (and so training) is, perhaps ceasing to be relevant to most modern drivers.

No, it is more relevant - the more people there are on the road, the more important it is that people drive well... IAM and AD is not all about NSL

But surely one key thing it is about is getting enjoyment out of driving. If it is reduced to strict compliance to unreasonably low speed limits then that will go out of the window.

Are you saying you can only get driving pleasure from higher speeds?

Buy a slower car, enjoy getting the best out of it!

[TheInsanity1234]

The perfect solution to the ever-decreasing speed limits is to purchase a car which is underpowered that you have to work hard to get it up to 40.

Therefore, the solution is a Fiat Panda 1.0.

Who knew OAP transport was indeed the holy grail of driving at 35 and having fun!

[Garrison]

The perfect solution to the ever-decreasing speed limits is to purchase a car which is underpowered that you have to work hard to get it up to 40.

Therefore, the solution is a Fiat Panda 1.0.

Who knew OAP transport was indeed the holy grail of driving at 35 and having fun!

And skinny, low-grip tyres. I was stunned when I first drove a Toyota GT86 that how little grip there is on country roads against my 1995 MR2. Of course, not everyone like to slide their cars on every journey.

[TheInsanity1234]

The perfect solution to the ever-decreasing speed limits is to purchase a car which is underpowered that you have to work hard to get it up to 40.

Therefore, the solution is a Fiat Panda 1.0.

Who knew OAP transport was indeed the holy grail of driving at 35 and having fun!

And skinny, low-grip tyres. I was stunned when I first drove a Toyota GT86 that how little grip there is on country roads against my 1995 MR2. Of course, not everyone like to slide their cars on every journey.

But seriously, if you have very low grip, then it's a lot more fun as you're reaching the limits of the car at quite low speeds, which are probably well within NSL limits!

I reckon that's why lots of people are now buying more powerful cars to try and have fun, because the amount of grip available has shot sky high even on typical white-goods motoring cars. I'm sure a Kia Picanto from now would have more grip than a 6 series BMW from the 80's.

Consequently, people put in more power into cars so they can get back some sense of risk, blah blah blah.

So person drives faster because they're trying to invoke some excitement from a grippy and powerful car, overcooks it massively, boom, major crash.

However, in a Fiat Panda, or a car with low grip and low power, you drive along, and overcook it while doing 45 mph. It's okay, as you can easily coast to a halt without hitting the scenery

But this has been touched upon by James May in one of his columns, that to have fun, you need a low power, low grip set of tyres.

[Garrison]

But seriously, if you have very low grip, then it's a lot more fun as you're reaching the limits of the car at quite low speeds, which are probably well within NSL limits!

I reckon that's why lots of people are now buying more powerful cars to try and have fun, because the amount of grip available has shot sky high even on typical white-goods motoring cars. I'm sure a Kia Picanto from now would have more grip than a 6 series BMW from the 80's.

Consequently, people put in more power into cars so they can get back some sense of risk, blah blah blah.

So person drives faster because they're trying to invoke some excitement from a grippy and powerful car, overcooks it massively, boom, major crash.

However, in a Fiat Panda, or a car with low grip and low power, you drive along, and overcook it while doing 45 mph. It's okay, as you can easily coast to a halt without hitting the scenery

But this has been touched upon by James May in one of his columns, that to have fun, you need a low power, low grip set of tyres.

All well and good, until you overcooked a GT86 with VSC off and ended up with a tank slapper. Then what?

I feared drivers who experience only in modern cars may not be as good as those in the past to judge the limit and apply the correct corrective measures to bring the car to a halt, as modern cars have generally less feel and more drivers' aids to lean up on.

It took me a while to get the hang of my Mark 2 MR2 (mid-engine and no aid except for ABS and power-steering), especially to correct over-steer without over correction which can end up in a tank slapper. The Mark 3 MR2 with VSC was much easier to drive fast but still tricky to handle with VSC off due to wheels at each corner and shorter wheelbase. However, I feared not many people who drive the Mark 3 will actively practice VSC off limit handling to ensure that they are up to the task when corrective measures are called for ...

[jont]

All well and good, until you overcooked a GT86 with VSC off and ended up with a tank slapper. Then what?

Why have you got VSC off on the road? And if you're playing on an airfield, who cares

/off to buy some ditchfinders for the Caterham...
(to be fair, after exploring on the car limits activity day, it's probably the most docile RWD car I've owned).

[Ancient]

I took my IAM test in a '59 MGA. Fun at legal speeds and felt like it was on rails going around bends (very annoying when a modern motorway tank blasts past on a straight only to anchor up trying to get 'round the slight bend ahead). During the test I did slip slightly on some back-lane mud, the only comment at the end of the test was "That was a cheerful drive" .

[Garrison]

All well and good, until you overcooked a GT86 with VSC off and ended up with a tank slapper. Then what?

Why have you got VSC off on the road? And if you're playing on an airfield, who cares :lol

I wouldn't turn any stability control off on public roads but having been on many forums (piston heads, 911UK, and various Ford, Mazda, Toyota, etc.), apparently a lot of people do on public roads.

[ChristianAB]

Well, I always drive my 370z with the traction control off, simply because when it's on, I'm not actually driving it. The software is overbearing: the same movement on the gas pedal can sometimes give you anything between 10% to 30% of the power when driving slowing and taking roundabouts. So there's a complete lack of consistency to pedal feel with the traction control on.
Is it unsafe? it's debatable. There is a roundabout near where I live which can get very slippery in winter. I tried taking it slightly faster than the conditions allowed (but still below the current 20 mph) on one icy winter morning, with traction control on and off. When it's on: understeer, and when it's off: oversteer. I know most people prefer understeer, which probably explains the standard TC setup, but I actually naturally prefer oversteer, so I found the experience with TC on way more frightening than with it off. So I guess it's a matter of personal predilection.
In the meantime, that TC is staying firmly OFF

[Garrison]

Well, I always drive my 370z with the traction control off, simply because when it's on, I'm not actually driving it. The software is overbearing: the same movement on the gas pedal can sometimes give you anything between 10% to 30% of the power when driving slowing and taking roundabouts. So there's a complete lack of consistency to pedal feel with the traction control on.
Is it unsafe? it's debatable. There is a roundabout near where I live which can get very slippery in winter. I tried taking it slightly faster than the conditions allowed (but still below the current 20 mph) on one icy winter morning, with traction control on and off. When it's on: understeer, and when it's off: oversteer. I know most people prefer understeer, which probably explains the standard TC setup, but I actually naturally prefer oversteer, so I found the experience with TC on way more frightening than with it off. So I guess it's a matter of personal predilection.
In the meantime, that TC is staying firmly OFF

When you felt the understeer, was the ESP light flashing on the dash? I.e. has the car run out of front end grip or just you start to lose confidence at the front end? It may just be a sensation of understeer. Have a read of these threads

- http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4312&p=85051&hilit=understeer#p85051
- http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3547&p=69831&hilit=understeer#p69831
- http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3048&p=60160&hilit=understeer#p60160
- http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3012&p=59502&hilit=understeer#p59502

At low speed (under 30 mph), it is relatively easy to control without stability control. Once you are doing 55/60 mph, when a car snap sideways on a country road on a bend (when you least expected), there is not a lot of space to gather everything up WITHIN YOUR LANE. The correction of oversteer is made even more challenging when you are looking at the coming traffic bearing down on you!! (BTW - you should not be staring at on-coming traffic when you are skidding, you should be looking at where you want to end up)

My MR2 (no driver aid) once snapped sideways at c.50 mph on a Cambridgeshire fens road in the winter and I had to correct it without over-correcting or fish tailing or spinning. The pressure is pretty tough - 1) with a lorry coming the other way so you cannot cross the centre line, 2) you are following a few cars and another few cars following you , 3) you were not concentrating hard, as you were sure you were not driving too fast for the condition as you have been travelling at the same speed as the cars in front (obviously wrong in hindsight), and 4) the pressure to get it right so not wipe-out both the cars behind and the on-coming if you spin. I really, really do not want to experience that ever again and I really, really value stability control systems.

[akirk]

having had an MGB roadster without traction control and having spun it at <10mph on black ice - where I know TC would have made no difference, but still...

the Z3 traction control stays firmly on - to be fair it rarely interferes, and I have had other drivers turn it off - including one who showed me how to turn it fully off (and then showed me how to really drive well!) but I quite like the comfort factor / insurance

I can see that if it interfered I would be tempted to remove it

Alasdair

[Garrison]

[Yoda]Bad Workman tools he blames[\Yoda]
Seriously, if you're having trouble with the TCS encroaching on your driving 'style' I'd suggest that rather than turning it off, you find out why it's triggering. And don't get me started on the whole definition of under steer thing...

Go easy Dave. Christian has been my IAM associates and he is still improving. You know we are not as competent as you

[ChristianAB]

@ Garrison - the light was on. But really, you have to try it and see for yourself.

I think there is less into it than meet the eye, really. In fact, until I drove this particular car, I would probably not have believed someone else making the claims I just made, so the reactions are somewhat expected.
You just have to drive it and see for yourself. Certainly, it's not something I felt comfortable doing initially. I tried to keep that TC on. I really did. But:

a/ you loose so much negative feedback for when you are over-cooking the throttle
(we are talking sub-30mph speeds here - no going crazy), that it actually defeats the point of becoming a smoother driver. At least when it's off, I know when I'm doing it wrong.
b/ It made me drive slower.
c/ It made me a more thoughtful driver.

However, I think there is something deeper at play here. The TC is here as an extra safeguard, so we should, by default, keep it. Right ? Well, isn't that precisely the mindset that's driving the speed limits down everywhere ? A lower speed limit is an added protection, as is TC, as is ABS.
They are useful, but they also stop negative feedback, and this comes with its own problems. In particular and regarding 'driving style', on my car, the TC will mask the shortcomings of a less precise driver, who is unlikely to even notice the inconsistent throttle linkage.

In fact these days, all cars come with all sorts of electronic aids, with few exceptions (wink wink Noble M600), so I guess that's the prevalent view. No surprise then that the speed limits will keep on going down.

In the meantime, I will start saving. Who knows, maybe in a few (many) years I will be able to afford one of those Noble cars ?

[ChristianAB]

Something that I may have left out in my previous post. For the avoidance of any doubt. I am not in favour of switching your TC off by default. In fact, off all the cars I have ever driven and of the cars I currently drive, there is only one in which I felt the need to turn it off.
There are some occasions when I will leave it on as well, when it's raining hard and I'm on the motorway on summer tires for instance.

But my point is that it will be a conscious decision, which I will make every time, and only for this one car, for the reasons outlined in my previous posts.
However, if I think the conditions will be really tricky for whatever reason, then I will probably not drive the car in the first place, and happily use another car or not drive at all. In hindsight, that's probably why it's rather rare that I drive the car with the TC on.

I have also taken some training on controlling oversteer, understeer, and I am regularly re-training to make sure the skills are there in the unfortunate event that I need them. I also have raced go-karts for several years on tracks that were often wet/icy. So the TC is not just a switch that I turn off, it's my entire approach to driving that's changed to match.

@ garrison:
With TC on (icy mini roundabout - approach speed: about 15 mph)
constant throttle, turn the steering wheel - car keeps going straight - keep same steering lock - ease off throttle - car is still going straight - panic/swear/sweat/ - car finally turns right, avoid incoming kerb - puzzled look - calm down - go home and think it over.

with TC off (5 min earlier same approach speed )
constant throttle, turn the steering wheel - car turns right - tails goes wide - ease off the throttle - counter-steer - gentle slide stops - smile - off you go.

@ stressedDave
I believe that in the end, I will get to the point when I can correctly predict the reaction of my car and then leaving the TC on will not make any difference. But to get to that point, it's seems faster to keep it off and use the negative feedback.

[Astraist]

With TC on (icy mini roundabout - approach speed: about 15 mph)
constant throttle, turn the steering wheel - car keeps going straight - keep same steering lock - ease off throttle - car is still going straight - panic/swear/sweat/ - car finally turns right, avoid incoming kerb - puzzled look - calm down - go home and think it over.

Obviously you are entering the mini roundabout far too fast in both situations.

Having been coached at car control, you would know that taking a bit of steering out and maybe decelerating a bit more than just easing the throttle could better mend the situation.

with TC off (5 min earlier same approach speed )
constant throttle, turn the steering wheel - car turns right - tails goes wide - ease off the throttle - counter-steer - gentle slide stops - smile - off you go.

If you are not indeed overpowering the rear, than I would check the car (tyres and pressure, suspension, alignment) because if the car is balanced the back should not step out.

Also, again since you were coached in car control you should know better than to ease off the power when the back is in want of grip, which will be completly lost with the forward weight transfer.

I also wager that the oversteer you experienced hampers progress just as much as the understeer you would otherwise experience.