IAM masters/RoSPA gold?

[RobC]

Make retesting compulsory. If people decline and leave then that's fine. If people are retested and fail then that's fine too. Why would any AD organisation want people who are not up to standard as members?

It'll never happen though. Too much money to be lost.

Exactly.

We still haven't addressed the problem of actually retesting a significant proportion of 91,000 members every 3 or 5 years. There just aren't enough examiners inside the IAM or ROSPA. If full time professionals were employed the costs might put a lot of people off. Ideas please on postcard...

I agree with mefoster post above.

As regards testing and retesting, in in my view a professional organisation should have professional examiners and staff. I realise that professional examiners would cost more than the retired police driver examiners who are subsidised by their police pensions, however professionalism has to have its price. I'm sure the IAM's full time professional management are paid far more pro rata than they pay IAM examiners

[Carbon Based]

If the IAM / RoSPA courses / training are only affecting the short term then perhaps the training is not optimum?

Maybe it isn't. Perhaps you represent a statistical outlier

If it were optimum, then wouldn't we see more benefits through our motor insurance?

Those companies seem to want to see black boxes installed as they envisage that as increasing their profitability. They don't make similar requirements for post test training.

So whey don't they perceive post test training as a valid method of reducing claims costs?

[akirk]

If the IAM / RoSPA courses / training are only affecting the short term then perhaps the training is not optimum?

Maybe it isn't. Perhaps you represent a statistical outlier

If it were optimum, then wouldn't we see more benefits through our motor insurance?

Those companies seem to want to see black boxes installed as they envisage that as increasing their profitability. They don't make similar requirements for post test training.

So whey don't they perceive post test training as a valid method of reducing claims costs?

I suspect because post test training is not really understood - or measurable...
easy to have a black box measure speed / g-force / time of day
difficult to have it measure observation / anticipation / courtesy!

and we have a culture that believes the big issue is speed - and that the way to deal with it is to monitor speed / find ways of reducing it - rather than the more intelligent approach of understanding the more sophisticated concept of advanced driving...

Alasdair

[RobC]

I suspect because post test training is not really understood - or measurable...
easy to have a black box measure speed / g-force / time of day
difficult to have it measure observation / anticipation / courtesy!

and we have a culture that believes the big issue is speed - and that the way to deal with it is to monitor speed / find ways of reducing it - rather than the more intelligent approach of understanding the more sophisticated concept of advanced driving...

Alasdair

Surely post test training is measurable by taking advanced tests.

As a fleet driver trainer, telematics are now being widely used by companies in the fleet industry and its use will spread to private vehicles incentivised by insurance companies.
Telematics can gives some interesting results, to some extent anticipation an courtesy can be measured by telematics by smooth driving, however one of my clients who uses vehicle telematics giving their drivers a monthly score on their driving employs an ex police class 1 driver who is usually scored as their worst driver!

As far as speed goes we can only legislate for the road type and area and average driver.

[WhoseGeneration]

Some deity, please save me from a "telematics" world.

[RobC]

Some deity, please save me from a "telematics" world.

I'm afraid Big brother has been increasingly watching us for some time and our driving increasingly scrutinised from afar. Everyone walks around carrying a video camera and now we also have dashcams in increasing usage.

[jcochrane]

As regards testing and retesting, in in my view a professional organisation should have professional examiners and staff. I realise that professional examiners would cost more than the retired police driver examiners who are subsidised by their police pensions, however professionalism has to have its price. I'm sure the IAM's full time professional management are paid far more pro rata than they pay IAM examiners

I understand where you are coming from but the problem is where to go to find these "professionals" required to test at advanced level? Definitely not from the DSA ADI world, that's the last place to go, although there are a very small minority who have advanced diving knowledge and understanding. At the moment the Advanced Police Driver is about the best we can do, At least whilst they were in the force they were professional drivers and not forgetting that not all the examiners are retired.

[jont]

As far as speed goes we can only legislate for the road type and area and average driver.

No, we /could/ legislate at any level (or aspire to change the "average"). But politicians choose to take the easy option What they seem to forget is that if you legislate for the lowest common denominator, the idiots tend to drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

[RobC]

As regards testing and retesting, in in my view a professional organisation should have professional examiners and staff. I realise that professional examiners would cost more than the retired police driver examiners who are subsidised by their police pensions, however professionalism has to have its price. I'm sure the IAM's full time professional management are paid far more pro rata than they pay IAM examiners

I understand where you are coming from but the problem is where to go to find these "professionals" required to test at advanced level? Definitely not from the DSA ADI world, that's the last place to go, although there are a very small minority who have advanced diving knowledge and understanding. At the moment the Advanced Police Driver is about the best we can do, At least whilst they were in the force they were professional drivers and not forgetting that not all the examiners are retired.

To be a professional examiner all that is required is that the person has the knowledge/qualifications of the required standard, can identify faults and does the job full time. There is no requirement for DVSA examiners to have been ADIs. I wouldn't therefore suggest a DVSA ADI because their skills are in teaching/coaching learners which encompasses a greater range of skills and is far more difficult than that of an examiner or those assessing full licence holders.

I would have thought that there would be some suitable examiner candidates from amongst the 91,000 IAM membership plus Rospa membership. I'm sure however that the high salaried IAM management are quite happy with the situation where legally training has to be carried out for free (by part time non salaried staff) and examining carried out part time for next to nothing.

[RobC]

As far as speed goes we can only legislate for the road type and area and average driver.

No, we /could/ legislate at any level (or aspire to change the "average"). But politicians choose to take the easy option What they seem to forget is that if you legislate for the lowest common denominator, the idiots tend to drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

I agree with that, but we were talking about use of speed and I don't think that most speed limits are set too low even for an advanced driver, though there may be a case for increasing the motorway speed limit where traffic would allow.

[jont]

As far as speed goes we can only legislate for the road type and area and average driver.

No, we /could/ legislate at any level (or aspire to change the "average"). But politicians choose to take the easy option What they seem to forget is that if you legislate for the lowest common denominator, the idiots tend to drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

I agree with that, but we were talking about use of speed and I don't think that most speed limits are set too low even for an advanced driver, though there may be a case for increasing the motorway speed limit where traffic would allow.

You obviously haven't visited South Glos recently Vast swathes of countryside have lost their NSL for 40s or 50s (despite the fact that the minor roads off them are NSL). For starters I'd suggest all of those should immediately be put back to NSL. Personally I'd also like to see NSL retake its old meaning of "derestricted".

[jcochrane]

Personally I'd also like to see NSL retake its old meaning of "derestricted".

With you on that.

[RobC]

Personally I'd also like to see NSL retake its old meaning of "derestricted".

With you on that.

Sounds like a boy racers charter. Unfortunately Speed limits ARE a target to some.
What you would find is a lot more 17 to 24 year olds killing themselves driving their Corsa's albeit at perfectly legal speeds .

[Carbon Based]

I suspect because post test training is not really understood - or measurable...

Anything can be measured. The bigger question is whether the data is actually reliable or even relevant to whatever particular goal you may have. As you say, the easiest data to collect isn't necessarily useful, it just makes it easier for someone to put it into a report or a headline.

and we have a culture that believes the big issue is speed - and that the way to deal with it is to monitor speed / find ways of reducing it - rather than the more intelligent approach of understanding the more sophisticated concept of advanced driving...

So what data would be required to encourage politicians, both at Westminster and the village hall, to change their focus?

[jont]

Personally I'd also like to see NSL retake its old meaning of "derestricted".

With you on that.

Sounds like a boy racers charter. Unfortunately Speed limits ARE a target to some.
What you would find is a lot more 17 to 24 year olds killing themselves driving their Corsa's albeit at perfectly legal speeds .

You think they're killing themselves within the speed limit at the moment? You really think the speed limit is a sufficient deterrent for those driving with poor skills/attitude? By not giving them a target you might make some think more about what they are doing. But no politician is going to be brave enough to experiment.