ADUK Archive

Carbon Based wrote:

akirk wrote:...if we share the roads with others and our actions affect others then it is fair for government to legislate...

But isn't this back to the get out clause of "something" is always better than nothing? Legislating is criminalising a past act. Educating is preventing a reoccurrence.

legislating can be about a punitive approach, or about an educational approach

legislation around driver training as a learner is education focused
legislation around not driving without a licence is punitive

both are about dealing with a situation where it is believed that a certain minimum driver standard (and proof therefof) is important so that person A doesn't affect person B

Alasdair

Trying to catch up on more than a week of forum.

Rob C what do you do? Sounds interesting.

Ref Rospa retests, does anyone know what Rospa do if a member fails to book his retest? Last time, I allowed mine to become more than a year overdue. Rospa took my sub by dd the following year and I did not receive any follow up reminder.

I am now due my next retest. I am asking myself whether there is any reason for me to take it.

Ref levels, in my area I am convinced that an IAM F1rst is harder to achieve than Rospa Gold. There were 7 examiners present at a local IAM group meeting last week. Between them they had only given a handful of F1rsts. It is quite evident from the stats that this varies by region. I am sure that within IAM there has been a fair amount of work to achieve standardisation around the level of an IAM pass, but not much around the level of F1rst. The Regional Quality Managers who carry out Masters make it clear that the standard required to achieve Masters, let alone achieve Distinction, is significantly higher than F1rst. (Note that my comments are all about the minimum standard required to achieve a particular grade.)

The High Performance Course is not about achieving a particular standard so much as having the right attitude to attempting to become the best driver that you can be - and even allowing you to work out for yourself what 'best driver' means for you.

waremark wrote:Trying to catch up on more than a week of forum.

Rob C what do you do? Sounds interesting.

Ref Rospa retests, does anyone know what Rospa do if a member fails to book his retest? Last time, I allowed mine to become more than a year overdue. Rospa took my sub by dd the following year and I did not receive any follow up reminder.

I am now due my next retest. I am asking myself whether there is any reason for me to take it.

Ref levels, in my area I am convinced that an IAM F1rst is harder to achieve than Rospa Gold. There were 7 examiners present at a local IAM group meeting last week. Between them they had only given a handful of F1rsts. It is quite evident from the stats that this varies by region. I am sure that within IAM there has been a fair amount of work to achieve standardisation around the level of an IAM pass, but not much around the level of F1rst. The Regional Quality Managers who carry out Masters make it clear that the standard required to achieve Masters, let alone achieve Distinction, is significantly higher than F1rst. (Note that my comments are all about the minimum standard required to achieve a particular grade.)

The High Performance Course is not about achieving a particular standard so much as having the right attitude to attempting to become the best driver that you can be - and even allowing you to work out for yourself what 'best driver' means for you.

Hello Mark

It's interesting to hear that examiners are still saying the bit I have underlined above, Amanda sacked me as an examiner when I suggested that there were differing standards! I wonder if they have voiced their views to Chiswick?

GS wrote:

waremark wrote:Trying to catch up on more than a week of forum.

Rob C what do you do? Sounds interesting.

Ref Rospa retests, does anyone know what Rospa do if a member fails to book his retest? Last time, I allowed mine to become more than a year overdue. Rospa took my sub by dd the following year and I did not receive any follow up reminder.

I am now due my next retest. I am asking myself whether there is any reason for me to take it.

Ref levels, in my area I am convinced that an IAM F1rst is harder to achieve than Rospa Gold. There were 7 examiners present at a local IAM group meeting last week. Between them they had only given a handful of F1rsts. It is quite evident from the stats that this varies by region. I am sure that within IAM there has been a fair amount of work to achieve standardisation around the level of an IAM pass, but not much around the level of F1rst. The Regional Quality Managers who carry out Masters make it clear that the standard required to achieve Masters, let alone achieve Distinction, is significantly higher than F1rst. (Note that my comments are all about the minimum standard required to achieve a particular grade.)

The High Performance Course is not about achieving a particular standard so much as having the right attitude to attempting to become the best driver that you can be - and even allowing you to work out for yourself what 'best driver' means for you.

Hello Mark

It's interesting to hear that examiners are still saying the bit I have underlined above, Amanda sacked me as an examiner when I suggested that there were differing standards! I wonder if they have voiced their views to Chiswick?

I was at the same examiners meeting. One examiner stated that he had awarded only two F1RSTs. I know for a fact that he has awarded at least three F1RSTs. So much for reliable evidence.

waremark wrote:Rob C what do you do? Sounds interesting.

Ref levels, in my area I am convinced that an IAM F1rst is harder to achieve than Rospa Gold. There were 7 examiners present at a local IAM group meeting last week. Between them they had only given a handful of F1rsts. It is quite evident from the stats that this varies by region. I am sure that within IAM there has been a fair amount of work to achieve standardisation around the level of an IAM pass, but not much around the level of F1rst. The Regional Quality Managers who carry out Masters make it clear that the standard required to achieve Masters, let alone achieve Distinction, is significantly higher than F1rst. (Note that my comments are all about the minimum standard required to achieve a particular grade.)

The High Performance Course is not about achieving a particular standard so much as having the right attitude to attempting to become the best driver that you can be - and even allowing you to work out for yourself what 'best driver' means for you.

Hi Waremark

I work in the Fleet driver industry assessing and training drivers. I provide driver training courses to companies, local county councils, schools, universities etc. I do a lot of vehicle familiarisation, car & MPV, SAFED type courses, (safe and fuel efficient van driving), Midas minibus training courses, I'm also a trainer for the Energy Saving Trust and provide funded eco driving courses for companies. Interesting work, I get around the country and meet a lot of people.

Regarding IAM F1rst v Rospa Gold, I asked that question to my local IAM examiner and he said that he'd never had a Rospa gold holder get an IAM F1rst. From what he told me he'd had complaints from Rospa Gold members, especially as he had given a 19 year old who failed his IAM for speeding a F1rst on his second attempt.
It didn't make sense to me either when inexperienced drivers get a F1rst whilst Rospa gold members don't.

Mind you quite a few things that this examiner told me didn't make sense to me either . I got the impression that examiner marking standards across the IAM are quite variable and that examiners aren't regularly check tested.

Do IAM regional quality managers sit in on some IAM tests or do they just leave the examiners to it?

RobC wrote:t the impression that examiner marking standards across the IAM are quite variable and that examiners aren't regularly check tested.

Do IAM regional quality managers sit in on some IAM tests or do they just leave the examiners to it?

Rob, your job sounds interesting. In the old IAM structure the Staff Examiners used to sit in on tests regularly and I feel sure the QM's do now. A system of quality control is essential for the DSA accreditation. When the current standards review is complete I expect a process of examiner retraining.

RobC wrote: I got the impression that examiner marking standards across the IAM are quite variable

They can be with the DVSA also.

RobC wrote:From what he told me he'd had complaints from Rospa Gold members, especially as he had given a 19 year old who failed his IAM for speeding a F1rst on his second attempt.
It didn't make sense to me either when inexperienced drivers get a F1rst whilst Rospa gold members don't.

Why? Failing for speeding on one attempt but then passing at F1rst level on a second attempt seems eminently possible to me. I'm a bit more surprised about 'experienced ROSPA Gold members not getting a F1rst' - my understanding was they were similar levels but perhaps they screwed up on the day?

Do IAM regional quality managers sit in on some IAM tests or do they just leave the examiners to it?

Yes I believe they do. What happens with ROSPA examiners?

fungus wrote:

RobC wrote: I got the impression that examiner marking standards across the IAM are quite variable

They can be with the DVSA also.

Hi Nigel

I've sat in on over 100 DVSA test of different types and there was hardly a test decision that I disagreed with. Monthly check testing of examiners did keep standards/marking fairly consistent from my experiences.

That's not to say that I think DVSA examiners are perfect, some were a little lacking in people skills which can make a difference to a nervous candidate.

Rob

martine wrote:

RobC wrote:From what he told me he'd had complaints from Rospa Gold members, especially as he had given a 19 year old who failed his IAM for speeding a F1rst on his second attempt.
It didn't make sense to me either when inexperienced drivers get a F1rst whilst Rospa gold members don't.

Why? Failing for speeding on one attempt but then passing at F1rst level on a second attempt seems eminently possible to me. I'm a bit more surprised about 'experienced ROSPA Gold members not getting a F1rst' - my understanding was they were similar levels but perhaps they screwed up on the day?

Do IAM regional quality managers sit in on some IAM tests or do they just leave the examiners to it?

Yes I believe they do. What happens with ROSPA examiners?

Hi Martin

I suppose its possible for an inexperienced driver to get an IAM F1RST after failing a first attempt, but its probably less possible that all the Rospa gold drivers the examiner has tested for IAM screwed up on the day. Given that there a 90% pass rate for the IAM test however maybe test marking consistency is not so much an issue.

I've no Idea how Rospa examiners compare except that I'm aware that some IAM examiners also examine for Rospa.

Rob

RobC wrote:...but its probably less possible that all the Rospa gold drivers the examiner has tested for IAM screwed up on the day.

It does seem unlikely but perhaps they've only tested a few?

Isn't there a fair amount of evidence that the minimum standard required for F1rst by many examiners is higher than the minimum required for Rospa Gold?

waremark wrote:Isn't there a fair amount of evidence that the minimum standard required for F1rst by many examiners is higher than the minimum required for Rospa Gold?

Hi Mark
It a matter of opinion unless it could be proven that the IAM F1rsts are marked to a more difficult criteria or standard and that all examiners mark to that standard.
Even then the fleet driver industry wouldn't accept IAM F1rst as the advanced driving qualification because , Rospa gold has been the benchmark for many years before the introduction of IAM F1rst. Also unlike Rospa, with IAM qualifications there isn't a requirement to keep driving skills current by reassessment.

Rob

RobC wrote:Even then the fleet driver industry wouldn't accept IAM F1rst as the advanced driving qualification because , Rospa gold has been the benchmark for many years...

Rob

Hi Rob,

I'm intrigued by the above quote. For what purpose (note: not reason) does the fleet driver industry accept... RoSPA Gold as the benchmark?

Thanks.

waremark wrote:Isn't there a fair amount of evidence that the minimum standard required for F1rst by many examiners is higher than the minimum required for Rospa Gold?

I have not heard any evidence other than hearsay - "such and such an examiner told me ..."

RobC wrote:...unless it could be proven that the IAM F1rsts are marked to a more difficult criteria or standard and that all examiners mark to that standard.

Which cannot be proven for the same reasons as the above - hearsay and different standards.

StressedDave wrote:I doubt the variability is any greater/less across either organisation as much of what is being examined is subjective.

Exactly. The examiner's opinion on the day is the only standard.

StressedDave wrote:I don't know whether there is any chapter and verse document that states exactly what the three grades are.

Not chapter and verse, only subjective levels - see here. It's pretty comprehensive on the competencies, but the grading is subjective. That said, I have a good idea of what grade my own associates will get, sometimes they surprise me by getting a better grade, sometimes they have a bad day and don't achieve what they could. I know of drivers from both organisations who drive at a level very different from that they were awarded on test - some better, some worse.