DVSA examiners

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby jont » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:04 pm


Horse wrote:Not mutually-exclusive aims!

Sounds like the main achievement was teaching drivers that they are driving diesel trucks, not petrol cars :roll: :lol:
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Postby Horse » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:31 pm


jont wrote:
Horse wrote:Not mutually-exclusive aims!

Sounds like the main achievement was teaching drivers that they are driving diesel trucks, not petrol cars :roll: :lol:


Worrying if true . . . reflect those figures for fuel saving across the whole country . . .

The drivers:

Participants
Thirty-six professional commercial vehicle drivers (male) with Category C/C+E qualifications were recruited from eleven companies to take part in trials. Mean age 44.4, years with full licence 25.1 and years as a professional truck driver 16.0.
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Postby chrisl » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:53 pm


Horse wrote:
jcochrane wrote:
chrisl wrote:Fair enough, thank you. (Although I do find it helpful to read the theory behind all this, including different opinions.)

The key to the System of Car Control, which is at the heart of Roadcraft and teaching from IAM and RoADA, is in the timing of its elements. Not really something you can get from a book.


Ah, the old "What's the secret of comedy?" gag. Doesn't work so well in print form :)

What you can do, having read these books, is try the principles for yourself. I don't think 'timing' is covered explicitly in RC, but it's like most things travel-related, in being inherently connected to speed and distance.

There is a knack to it: work 'backwards'!

For example:

To drive 'through' a turn, you need to be comfortable with applying throttle, and need to know where you will apply it and how much.

You'll also need to have decided a comfortable speed from which to apply power and from that can decide which gear.

So from 'throttle on' position, work backwards 'upstream'. Allow space for gear changes, prior to that (leaving out BGOL for now) have enough road space in which to slow.

If trying and learning, then you'll also need additional 'thinking' time to mentally talk yourself through it. That time requires distance. So the additional lesson is that if it all feels rushed then you're going too fast :)


Thank you Horse, that's the sort of thing I meant by reading about it being helpful. The specific example there seems to dovetail with the technique of observing to the furthest point and working backwards, and more broadly with the recent discussion on driving plans in a different topic on this forum.

(With apologies for the delay, and for interrupting the main conversation (again.))
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Postby akirk » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:10 pm


Horse wrote:
chriskay wrote: Oh, eco driving may be something you're trained to deliver, but I've reached an age when I just want a bit of (safe) fun. :wink:


Not mutually-exclusive aims!


they can be...
in my Z3 I know it can do over 30mpg on a motorway
in auto it regularly returns 27-28mpg, or 24-25mpg if driving a bit harder
in 'manual' mode, push it into third - watch the revs climb above 3,000 and that is where the fun starts - the whole car comes alive, the engine is howling, it is repsonsive etc. - so much more fun... but it returns only 20mpg
take it to Bruntingthorpe for the day and it returns an average of 18 with c. 14 while there...

the more I have learned to enjoy the car, the more the mpg falls - and yet that would seem to be the antithesis of eco-driving

yet, the car is probably overall far more eco-friendly than the average modern diesel box knocking out over 50mpg - at 14+ years old there is pro rata a lot less environment impact than building a new car / disposing of it - so I intend to carry on enjoying driving

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Postby Horse » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:22 pm


akirk wrote:
Horse wrote:
chriskay wrote: I just want a bit of (safe) fun. :wink:


Not mutually-exclusive aims!


they can be...

the more I have learned to enjoy the car, the more the mpg falls - and yet that would seem to be the antithesis of eco-driving


I find the 'fun' or enjoyment comes from the challenges I set myself. That might be pin-point positioning, or chauffeur smoothness.

That's partly how the Games came about. In fact, I'll blame my mate Steve for inventing the 'no stopping' Game!

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.co.uk/p/d ... ining.html
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Postby RobC » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:06 pm


StressedDave wrote:
Your disdain of IAM examiners gives a fair hint as to your thoughts... I think it's more a case of what people here consider 'advanced' - I think there's a definition agreed with the DVSA that may not tally with what you do as a day job. I'm not a member of either organisation, so I can't comment on that one.


Hi Dave

That may be your opinion but I don't have a disdain of IAM examiners. I only don't agree with one examiners views on block gear changing and most on here agreed with my views. I was also in complete agreement with a number of posts a particular examiner made on here.

What the DVSA or others define as advanced doesn't really concern me as I consider myself a driver trainer rather than an advanced driver and everyone has their own definition of advanced in any case.
I'm also not concerned who is the most advanced driver or has the most advanced driver organisation as again its a matter of personal experience and opinion.

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Postby hir » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:02 pm


Horse wrote:
chriskay wrote: Oh, eco driving may be something you're trained to deliver, but I've reached an age when I just want a bit of (safe) fun. :wink:


Not mutually-exclusive aims!

Transfer of fuel-efficient driving technique from the simulator to the road: steps towards a cost-benefit model for synthetic training
A.M. Parkes & N. Reed.

TRUCKSIM is a programme of research focused on simulation as a training delivery tool for skills development in qualified truck drivers. This paper reports on results from a longitudinal cohort study that sought to provide an analysis of the benefits of synthetic training in the area of fuel efficiency improvement. 36 drivers attended the truck simulator on three separate occasions and received training designed to improve driving style in a range of traffic situations. Apparent fuel consumption figures were recorded during each simulator visit, and compared to real world fuel consumption records for the same drivers.

The results revealed a picture of improvement in the simulator of several aspects of driving performance. Drivers made an 11% increase in their fuel efficiency over the three visits to the simulator, with the biggest gain being made during the first visit. It was also clear that drivers retained what they had learned from one visit to another as fuel efficiency did not deteriorate between visits. The simulator data showed that drivers were handling the vehicle in a much more efficient manner. Average RPM observed during periods of acceleration dropped by 22% resulting in the engine operating in a more efficient region and generating 45% higher torque. There were also 29% fewer gear changes over the course of the drives. It would be easy to assume that drivers simply slowed down to achieve these improvements but the data show that drivers were actually around 8% faster overall.


Err, NO! I don't think you understand, chriskay mentioned the word FUN. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby WhoseGeneration » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:01 pm


hir wrote:Err, NO! I don't think you understand, chriskay mentioned the word FUN. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Oh dear, did you not receive the memo? Fun in any motorised vehicle is now, if not actually banned, considered very non PC.
Always a commentary, spoken or not.
Keeps one safe. One hopes.
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Postby RobC » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:33 pm


chriskay wrote:RobC; I think you'll find that most of us here have chosen to increase our level of driving competence, many to a high degree, in order that we can enjoy our driving more. Oh, eco driving may be something you're trained to deliver, but I've reached an age when I just want a bit of (safe) fun. :wink:


Hi Chris

I have also chosen to increase my driving competence to a high level, but in various styles of driving mainly for my own benefit, but also because as a fleet driver trainer I am expected to have a knowledge of all styles of driving.
Ecodriving is useful training, though I'm not suggesting that it has to be used all the time just as a police driver wouldn't drive in response mode all the time.
Most drivers including myself alter their driving style to suit the vehicle they are driving, their mood or traffic and road conditions.

I would be the last one to stop anyone wanting a bit of (safe) fun in cars, sadly I've reached an age where my back isn't as supple as it once was :wink: :lol:

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Postby TripleS » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:33 am


StressedDave wrote:
RobC wrote:Most drivers including myself alter their driving style to suit the vehicle they are driving, their mood or traffic and road conditions.

I'm not sure that I agree with that being a good aim - particularly in an 'instructor' (Not sure if you use that term for what you do). I certainly wouldn't expect the vehicle to be in any way a controlling factor (save perhaps in a 7.5 tonne where the limits are significantly different), nor should mood have an effect, nor indeed should road conditions. I'm probably talking more about the quality of the drive and the consistency of margins.

IME those who have different distinctive styles tend to be poorer drivers. One of the question I often ask is whether what they've just delivered is their normal style or some act put on because I'm sitting next to them.


I'm not sure that I'm seeing the merits of that entirely. I tend to agree with Rob.

Leaving aside the instructor aspect, I certainly feel that I have a variety of driving styles, and these do vary according to several factors, which have mostly been mentioned. In AD terms maybe I'm a poorer driver, but I don't feel that having a variety of styles is sufficient to confirm that to be the case. I'm not sure if drivers as a whole have a variety of driving styles. Maybe they don't, at least not in the same way.

What I do agree about is the desirability of avoiding the feeling of giving a demonstration, putting on a show etc., as this distorts things, but I suppose if the drive is of sufficient duration an experienced assessor would soon detect it.
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Postby jcochrane » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:40 am


StressedDave wrote:
RobC wrote:Most drivers including myself alter their driving style to suit the vehicle they are driving, their mood or traffic and road conditions.

I'm not sure that I agree with that being a good aim - particularly in an 'instructor' (Not sure if you use that term for what you do). I certainly wouldn't expect the vehicle to be in any way a controlling factor (save perhaps in a 7.5 tonne where the limits are significantly different), nor should mood have an effect, nor indeed should road conditions. I'm probably talking more about the quality of the drive and the consistency of margins.

IME those who have different distinctive styles tend to be poorer drivers. One of the question I often ask is whether what they've just delivered is their normal style or some act put on because I'm sitting next to them.

I tend to agree with SD. The best drivers I have been driven by have developed "their style" A style that defines their driving. For example people may say (hopefully) "I like his style of driving and aspire to drive like that".

The other feature that stands out with the very best drivers is the consistency of delivery of that style. I find inconsistency in the style of drive (or if it feels "put on") makes me feel unsettled.

Compare the drive of the best in central London and on a deserted Scottish road, their style is evident in both driving scenarios. At least that's what I've found.
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Postby Horse » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:18 am


jcochrane wrote:
StressedDave wrote:
RobC wrote:Most drivers including myself alter their driving style to suit the vehicle they are driving, their mood or traffic and road conditions.

I'm not sure that I agree with that being a good aim - particularly in an 'instructor' (Not sure if you use that term for what you do).

I'm probably talking more about the quality of the drive and the consistency of margins.

IME those who have different distinctive styles tend to be poorer drivers. One of the question I often ask is whether what they've just delivered is their normal style or some act put on because I'm sitting next to them.


The best drivers I have been driven by have developed "their style" A style that defines their driving. For example people may say (hopefully) "I like his style of driving and aspire to drive like that".

The other feature that stands out with the very best drivers is the consistency of delivery of that style.


Interesting development of the discussion.

I've mentioned earlier on of the advanced tests I took (the Star Rider 'Gold') where the test ride was in two parts: full system, then the applicable/necessary elements. Is that a demonstration of varied delivery?

I will adjust my driving, one example is whether or not there are passengers on board - a solo 'spirited' drive is not going to endear me to passengers! Other times I will 'play' in order to improve fuel consumption. So there's three different 'styles'. Does that [modestly self=proclaimed] ability to adjust make me a worse driver and bad person? ;)

If 'no', which elements of 'style' are ones to aspire to? Or have I missed the point [again]? :)

Several years back I moved away from 4xS assessment (even then with my own twist), to: Safety Smooth Style. Perhaps I'd hit on an idea without realising it was already in use :D
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Postby jcochrane » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:40 am


mefoster wrote:There appear to be differences as to what constitutes a "style" in this discussion. Unless you're all talking about the same thing - which I am quite sure that you're not - you're not going to get very far.

I was about to say the same. I'm thinking driving style pertaining to the driver not scenarios.

Rather crudely put but a driver with a smooth style remains smooth in different scenarios. A driver with an erratic style remains erratic in different scenarios. Of course it's not quite that simple but hope the example serves.
Last edited by jcochrane on Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Horse » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:46 am


mefoster wrote:There appear to be differences as to what constitutes a "style" in this discussion. Unless you're all talking about the same thing - which I am quite sure that you're not - you're not going to get very far.


Hence asking:
Horse wrote: . . . which elements of 'style' are ones to aspire to?


Here's my explanation of what I mean:

Instead of training riders to towards an ‘advanced’ test, I’ve been working more on sorting problems, really helping riders to enjoy their riding, and overcoming hurdles they had.

As part of that I developed the three-level Whole Rider assessment format – I really must make that available some day – which is a single assessment format which can be used for all riders from novice through to advanced.

For riders who simply want to enjoy their riding, without the ‘progress’ imperative often felt by those taking advanced training, the ‘speed’ and ‘sparkle’ elements may be irrelevant.

Also, those riders may not want to ride like a police officer on his best behaviour, they may prefer to move around like a motocross rider, or hang off like a grand prix star. That’s up to them to chose!

So I’ve shortened the 5xS back to three. Keeping ‘Safety’ and ‘Smooth’, I’ve removed the final three and, instead, added ‘Style’.

As I was moving away from ‘advanced’ training, I simplified my basic assessment of someone’s riding (although I’d use the Whole Rider Assessment and an advanced test format as necessary), asking just a few simple questions:
“Is their riding safe?”
“Is the riding in control?”
“Does the rider know what they’re doing and why?”

Which ties reasonably well with Safety Smooth Style.

Now, Q‘3’ isn’t just about ‘style’, it also encompasses far more about the rider’s awareness and the decisions they make. But from decisions come style, even self-expression.
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Postby jcochrane » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:57 am


jcochrane wrote:
mefoster wrote:There appear to be differences as to what constitutes a "style" in this discussion. Unless you're all talking about the same thing - which I am quite sure that you're not - you're not going to get very far.

I was about to say the same. I'm thinking driving style pertaining to the driver not scenarios.

Rather crudely put but a driver with a smooth style remains smooth in different scenarios. A driver with an erratic style remains erratic in different scenarios. Of course it's not quite that simple but hope the example serves.

To add... I find it unsettling if the drivers style is not consistent and mixes styles, one moment smooth the next moment erratic.

Put another way. If you had just driven with someone and I asked you to describe his driving. Your answer is likely to be to describe his style.
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