akirk wrote: greatness without being able to produce a mark sheet to explain why - life / humans / skills are not so simple that you can put them all into boxes
akirk wrote: ref recent discussions about musicians as an example
StressedDave wrote:Horse wrote:Would it be so wrong to create a similar structure for driving? It might need a little imagination, but surely it's possible? One objection I can foresee is that it doesn't address the 'randomness' of typical on-road driving - but surely that's an indication of potential randomness in the training/test regime itself?
What like this?
vonhosen wrote: Perhaps not heavily relying on ex Police for examiners would help, The vast majority of those ex Police also won't have been trained by the Police to teach or examine, they'll have been given the training & tools to drive that way, not to teach/examine driving that way (let alone alternate ways).
Matt62 wrote:vonhosen wrote: Perhaps not heavily relying on ex Police for examiners would help, The vast majority of those ex Police also won't have been trained by the Police to teach or examine, they'll have been given the training & tools to drive that way, not to teach/examine driving that way (let alone alternate ways).
The ex (and serving) Police officers that I have been examined by over the years (ROSPA), have all been quite pragmatic regarding many of the 'hot' procedural topics that appear on this forum. They have also been quite happy to offer comments, advice, suggestions and general conversation during the drive; making the whole exercise a relatively pleasant and informative experience.
Other than the first time I have been given a 'Gold' on each occasion, despite delivering drives which I am sure many members of this forum (including myself) could easily pick holes in. From this I suspect that what they are really looking for is a combination of enthusiasm, driving knowledge and safety, delivered in a reasonably systematic way. They are not carrying out a 'box ticking' exercise.
I believe that they carry out this role, in their own time, due to a general interest in improving driving standards. Replacing these people with box ticking examiners obsessed with the minutiae of BGOL or whatever, would I think, be a seriously retrograde step.
Stephen wrote:When I took up the role of Examining I was lead to believe that I was going to see a standard of driving that was nearly as good as a standard Police driver , Oh how disappointed I was.
Now 4 years on I am still waiting to see that standard, I will probably never see it and due to this I have had to lower my standard when testing associates for test.
Prior to being an Examiner I was a Senior Observer within my local group for best part of 20 years so feel that I knew what I was talking about.
I would be asked to check drive associates who had been put in for test and on theses occasions I would say that they needed a bit more tuition but they would go ahead and they would pass with the of then examiner for 30 years. I also had to take my test with the IAM as it was prior to any exemptions.
For me standards have declined over the years and will not get any better in fact they are getting worst this is only my opinion and it is not only AD standards that are worst but DVSA standards as well and I put it down to the poor tuition they get which is to pass there test and not a SFL teaching them to be fit for purpose.
Stephen wrote:When I took up the role of Examining I was lead to believe that I was going to see a standard of driving that was nearly as good as a standard Police driver , Oh how disappointed I was.
Now 4 years on I am still waiting to see that standard, I will probably never see it and due to this I have had to lower my standard when testing associates for test.
Prior to being an Examiner I was a Senior Observer within my local group for best part of 20 years so feel that I knew what I was talking about.
I would be asked to check drive associates who had been put in for test and on theses occasions I would say that they needed a bit more tuition but they would go ahead and they would pass with the of then examiner for 30 years. I also had to take my test with the IAM as it was prior to any exemptions.
For me standards have declined over the years and will not get any better in fact they are getting worst this is only my opinion and it is not only AD standards that are worst but DVSA standards as well and I put it down to the poor tuition they get which is to pass there test and not a SFL teaching them to be fit for purpose.
Stephen wrote:When I took up the role of Examining I was lead to believe that I was going to see a standard of driving that was nearly as good as a standard Police driver , Oh how disappointed I was.
Now 4 years on I am still waiting to see that standard, I will probably never see it and due to this I have had to lower my standard when testing associates for test.
Stephen wrote:Prior to being an Examiner I was a Senior Observer within my local group for best part of 20 years so feel that I knew what I was talking about.
I would be asked to check drive associates who had been put in for test and on theses occasions I would say that they needed a bit more tuition but they would go ahead and they would pass with the of then examiner for 30 years. I also had to take my test with the IAM as it was prior to any exemptions.
Stephen wrote:For me standards have declined over the years and will not get any better...
Stephen wrote:... in fact they are getting worst this is only my opinion and it is not only AD standards that are worst but DVSA standards as well and I put it down to the poor tuition they get which is to pass there test and not a SFL teaching them to be fit for purpose.
Stephen wrote:
Standards will not get any better as over the years the standards have been watered down with the emphasis from some areas being on quantity rather than quality.
At present I can not say what exactly is the root cause to the declining standards whether it be the Observers ,the ones who do not want to move with change or other influencing factors. Might I add that it is not only the decline of the AD standards it is driving at all levels that has/is declining and it will get worst as the roads will be getting policed even more in the not too distant future.
Matt62 wrote:I am still a bit hung up on the comparison with Police drivers. It seems to me that if any Police driver could turn up in 'plain clothes', take the ROSPA or IAM test and be obviously BETTER in terms of safety, smoothness and progress than any other member, then the AD organisations are going down the wrong track - and this seems to be what Stephen is saying.
If the Police drivers are just DIFFERENT - commentary style or whatever, then I am not so sure that this is quite so worrying.
Many AD organisation members (like me) will be 'chancers' when it comes to our three yearly re tests, but there are a lot of 'anoraks' who I am sure will be quite disappointed by Stephen's comments and the implication that they can't improve (or are going down the wrong route anyway).
Matt62 wrote:
I think most of us would identify Police drivers in 'civilian' mode as role models for where we would like our own driving to be
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