DVSA examiners

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

You can't learn this stuff from books

Oh yes you can - the theory at least. What you can't learn is how to apply the theory to real life, and get it right every time.

Go and see either Andy Morrison or Clive Jones for a better understanding

A better interpretation, certainly. Both of those gentlemen will, however, expect you to apply the principles from Roadcraft to your driving, IME.

[jcochrane]

Fair enough, thank you. (Although I do find it helpful to read the theory behind all this, including different opinions.)

The key to the System of Car Control, which is at the heart of Roadcraft and teaching from IAM and RoADA, is in the timing of its elements. Not really something you can get from a book.

[Horse]

Fair enough, thank you. (Although I do find it helpful to read the theory behind all this, including different opinions.)

The key to the System of Car Control, which is at the heart of Roadcraft and teaching from IAM and RoADA, is in the timing of its elements. Not really something you can get from a book.

Ah, the old "What's the secret of comedy?" gag. Doesn't work so well in print form

What you can do, having read these books, is try the principles for yourself. I don't think 'timing' is covered explicitly in RC, but it's like most things travel-related, in being inherently connected to speed and distance.

There is a knack to it: work 'backwards'!

For example:

To drive 'through' a turn, you need to be comfortable with applying throttle, and need to know where you will apply it and how much.

You'll also need to have decided a comfortable speed from which to apply power and from that can decide which gear.

So from 'throttle on' position, work backwards 'upstream'. Allow space for gear changes, prior to that (leaving out BGOL for now) have enough road space in which to slow.

If trying and learning, then you'll also need additional 'thinking' time to mentally talk yourself through it. That time requires distance. So the additional lesson is that if it all feels rushed then you're going too fast

[jcochrane]

So the additional lesson is that if it all feels rushed then you're going too fast

.....or not starting the system early enough.

[Horse]

So the additional lesson is that if it all feels rushed then you're going too fast

.....or not starting the system early enough.

No, because if you started earlier, but slower, you'd get bored before reaching the corner

Actually, I was thinking more a general guide. We all have 'limit' where we get 'ragged'* and it's important to recognise it.


Yes, I know, there will be someone waving their arm like a schoolkid and yelling "Not me, sir!"

[RobC]

Rob,
I dont want to start a war on differences between training but can you clarify your quote and give me an example of the ADI test no other extra gained qualifications that you may have "The ADI qualification includes training and examination to teach at all levels including FLHs"
I know part three could include an extended test, what I am interested in is the training that you receive during your three part ADI training that gives you the ADI the right to teach to Advanced level apart from the certificate of the ADI that says you can charge for training for me the DI training is all based around PLH or have I got it wrong.

Hi Stephen

The common misconception is that ADIs 'are for leaners'

If you look at Page 44 items 3.09 & 3.10 of DVSA Adi1 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-for-driving-examiners-carrying-out-instructor-tests-adi1 you will see that The ADI PT3 test of instructional ability is assessed on any two of 4 levels of 'pupil' Beginner, Partly Trained, Trained or FLH.

A system of 16 pre-set tests are used with the examiner in role as a pupil. All but 2 pre-set tests are can be examined with the 'pupil' being a FLH, so the ADI qualification is not just for PLHs.
Obviously it doesn't qualify an ADI to teach Police driving, however I would class Ecodriving/Ecosafe driving as advanced training for FLHs and ADIs can provide this training and are able to be paid for doing so.

Rob

[RobC]

Strictly speaking, if you want to be on the Fleet Register you need to either do a set of three exams (the same split as the standard ADI qualification) or a qualifying course with a registered provider. The Register is voluntary and you don't need to be on it to do Fleet courses. In other words it's a chocolate teapot and you don't need anything beyond PLH ADI training to do it.

Mind you there's f$ck all difference between what is taught on FLH & PLH courses...

Hi Dave

The ADI qualification and Fleet qualification are completely different.

An ADI doesn't have to be fleet registered to be paid for fleet work. The large national fleet training providers and companies requiring fleet training would however almost certainly want a fleet registered ADI.

An example would be that I am an Energy Saving Trust approved Ecotrainer. I can provide Ecodriving courses which are fully funded by the DfT. You cannot be an EST Ecodriving trainer unless you are a Fleet registered ADI.

So whilst some consider fleet to be a chocolate teapot, it actually makes a very nice cup of tea and is worth many thousands of £'s to others

Rob

[jcochrane]

Rob,
I dont want to start a war on differences between training but can you clarify your quote and give me an example of the ADI test no other extra gained qualifications that you may have "The ADI qualification includes training and examination to teach at all levels including FLHs"
I know part three could include an extended test, what I am interested in is the training that you receive during your three part ADI training that gives you the ADI the right to teach to Advanced level apart from the certificate of the ADI that says you can charge for training for me the DI training is all based around PLH or have I got it wrong.

Hi Stephen

The common misconception is that ADIs 'are for leaners'

If you look at Page 44 items 3.09 & 3.10 of DVSA Adi1 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-for-driving-examiners-carrying-out-instructor-tests-adi1 you will see that The ADI PT3 test of instructional ability is assessed on any two of 4 levels of 'pupil' Beginner, Partly Trained, Trained or FLH.

A system of 16 pre-set tests are used with the examiner in role as a pupil. All but 2 pre-set tests are can be examined with the 'pupil' being a FLH, so the ADI qualification is not just for PLHs.
Obviously it doesn't qualify an ADI to teach Police driving, however I would class Ecodriving/Ecosafe driving as advanced training for FLHs and ADIs can provide this training and are able to be paid for doing so.

Rob

That still sounds to me like teaching/knowledge requirement at kindergarten, beginner level as opposed to primary school (intermediate) for IAM, RoADA and, at those bodies higher levels, starting Secondary school which still leaves teaching at University level (advanced)

Of course I do know many ADI's who have taken the trouble to learn and understand more about driving than required to get their ADI qualification.

Maybe I still have got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

[Stephen]

Rob,
Pardon me I new this the only difference from the PLH and FLH for the ADI test is that the FLH will be someone who has been diqualified from driving until test past, which puts them back to PLH and has to take an extended test, in essence the PDI will be making sure he is still up to test standard and for a little longer than the normal test.

There is no AD in it and is only from what I can see PLH apart from the FLH who has been reduced to PLH through the reasons given above.

If I were to be brave enough and say it is not much different to what an Observer for one of the two road safety organistaions does at the moment, when out with an associate identify, rectify their driving. All the add ons come later if you want to earn money teaching FLHs am I not right.

[RobC]

Rob,
Pardon me I new this the only difference from the PLH and FLH for the ADI test is that the FLH will be someone who has been diqualified from driving until test past, which puts them back to PLH and has to take an extended test, in essence the PDI will be making sure he is still up to test standard and for a little longer than the normal test.

There is no AD in it and is only from what I can see PLH apart from the FLH who has been reduced to PLH through the reasons given above.

If I were to be brave enough and say it is not much different to what an Observer for one of the two road safety organistaions does at the moment, when out with an associate identify, rectify their driving. All the add ons come later if you want to earn money teaching FLHs am I not right.

Hi Stephen

ADIs don't just teach FLH's who have been disqualified from driving until an extended test is passed. ADIs are expected to train at all levels of licence holder hence the requirement on the PT3 test. I have trained many hundreds of FLHs but have actually never trained a driver for an extended test!

At the basic FLH level ADI train drivers for pass plus, I have also given UK familiarisation to drivers, vehicle familiarisation, motorway tuition, Ecodriving, 4 x 4 training, ADI Pt 2 training, assessed mature drivers and trained in any other aspects of driving that FLHs way wish to refresh.

There are many ADIs such as myself (admittedly a minority) who do not teach PLH's at all. There are no further add ons required to train FLH's for reward. Those who train FLH's do however usually have further qualifications.

Rob

[TripleS]

You can't learn this stuff from books

Oh yes you can - the theory at least. What you can't learn is how to apply the theory to real life, and get it right every time.

Quite right: but then I would support that approach wouldn't I?

With all due respect to the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" brigade, I do feel it's wrong to dismiss the self-taught approach completely. Having said that, we do need to proceed carefully in applying the knowledge gained from books etc., as opposed to that acquired in the course of formal training with an expert coach. Like it or not, there is inevitably a degree of trial and error with these things: so we need to make sure the errors are only minor ones.

I was talking to my doctor a few days ago on the subject of 'how the hell we did survive to this age without all the nannying that now surrounds us', and he said that when we were little, we climbed small trees and occasionally fell out of one, which hurt a bit: so we learned not to risk falling out of big trees!

Have a safe and pleasant day folks,
Dave - Briggswath's (very poor) alternative to Monty Don.

[RobC]

ADIs don't just teach FLH's who have been disqualified from driving until an extended test is passed. ADIs are expected to train at all levels of licence holder hence the requirement on the PT3 test. I have trained many hundreds of FLHs but have actually never trained a driver for an extended test!

At the basic FLH level ADI train drivers for pass plus, I have also given UK familiarisation to drivers, vehicle familiarisation, motorway tuition, Ecodriving, 4 x 4 training, ADI Pt 2 training, assessed mature drivers and trained in any other aspects of driving that FLHs way wish to refresh.

There are many ADIs such as myself (admittedly a minority) who do not teach PLH's at all. There are no further add ons required to train FLH's for reward. Those who train FLH's do however usually have further qualifications.

Without being too rude though, I think there is a vast difference between what you consider to be 'advanced' (which appears to translates as 'what I do', judging by the huge signature beneath every post that you make, which seems only to lack the Bronze Swimming Certificate & Silver Swimming Certificate </Red Dwarf>) and what most on here consider it to be.

Hi Dave

Without being rude my full time occupation is training FLH. If yourself and others think they are far more 'advanced ' then me then that's fine because they have as much idea as to my standards or ability as I have of theirs.

You're right about preconceptions though, There are lots on here with qualifications. I should either take my signature off the bottom or add the 100 yards relay to it

Rob

[jont]

I did get a bit of a cocked eye from the last SE ADI though when I pointed out how my delivered lesson was to do with Ecodriving - in a BMW M3.

Didn't topgear demonstrate an M3 was more economical than a prius? (when the prius is being given "death" and the M3 just has to keep up)

[akirk]

motorway relays - I like it pass the baton every mile...
I have seen a packet of sweets being lobbed from one car to another next to it on the M5 - perhaps they were in training
brings a whole new meaning to The AA's relay service

even better - country road relays with overtaking thrown in for good measure!

Alasdair

[Horse]

Oh, eco driving may be something you're trained to deliver, but I've reached an age when I just want a bit of (safe) fun.

Not mutually-exclusive aims!

Transfer of fuel-efficient driving technique from the simulator to the road: steps towards a cost-benefit model for synthetic training
A.M. Parkes & N. Reed.

TRUCKSIM is a programme of research focused on simulation as a training delivery tool for skills development in qualified truck drivers. This paper reports on results from a longitudinal cohort study that sought to provide an analysis of the benefits of synthetic training in the area of fuel efficiency improvement. 36 drivers attended the truck simulator on three separate occasions and received training designed to improve driving style in a range of traffic situations. Apparent fuel consumption figures were recorded during each simulator visit, and compared to real world fuel consumption records for the same drivers.

The results revealed a picture of improvement in the simulator of several aspects of driving performance. Drivers made an 11% increase in their fuel efficiency over the three visits to the simulator, with the biggest gain being made during the first visit. It was also clear that drivers retained what they had learned from one visit to another as fuel efficiency did not deteriorate between visits. The simulator data showed that drivers were handling the vehicle in a much more efficient manner. Average RPM observed during periods of acceleration dropped by 22% resulting in the engine operating in a more efficient region and generating 45% higher torque. There were also 29% fewer gear changes over the course of the drives. It would be easy to assume that drivers simply slowed down to achieve these improvements but the data show that drivers were actually around 8% faster overall.