Block Gear Changes

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby RobC » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:36 pm


Rob - folks on here by nature tend to be very interested in lots of perspectives - by its nature, Advanced Driving is about using all sorts of skills to improve one's driving - it is open in its perspective and very much welcoming of a variety of views or options in the toolbox the driver uses... (of course there are exceptions...) - however DVSA driving, and your view seems to come across as very defined / proscribed and closed - not open to other ideas which is perhaps a shame - you seem very dismissive of advanced driving and the IAM et al - for example your comment about someone who passed the IAM in the 1970s and considers himself an advanced driver without further training - this is flawed logic - advanced driving doesn't exist because of training courses / qualifications (though they undoubtedly can help) - it is totally possible for someone to go 40 years without training and to be an advanced driver - much may depend on their attitudes / self awareness / etc. of course we all know that they may have fallen back a bit - but your conclusions are not sound... I did the IAM in the late 90s and nearly 20 years later needed only a couple of hours refresher before successfully completing the much much more advanced HPC course... It was clear that while there was still a long way I could develop, I had remained an advanced driver over c. 20 years without training...

I would agree though there does seem to be a difference in attitudes, but for one I am always interested in other views - I would just hope that those others are equally open in their views, not so summarily dismissive...

Alasdair




Hi Alasdair

I agree someone who passed their IAM in the 1970's may be a better driver than someone who passed their IAM this year. The point I was making is that the biggest difference I have found between IAM, Rospa, and the DVSA is in peoples attitudes and not their driving style.

Possibly your own view of the DVSA driving is that it is defined, proscribed and closed and not open to other ideas. and It therefore follows that I must be the same. :?
We all make judgements based on our own experience and many people have very little knowledge of the DVSA system other than taking a driving test many years ago. In truth all the systems in my experience have good and bad points.
I am therefore not dismissive of advanced driving. Training FLHs is my full time job and I train them to advanced level. I am hardly going to train FLHs to learner standards.
I don't have a closed view to any proven advanced technique however I wont be suggesting to my customers that they should not block gear change when changing up the gearbox :)

Rob
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Postby akirk » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:42 pm


RobC wrote:Hi Alasdair

I agree someone who passed their IAM in the 1970's may be a better driver than someone who passed their IAM this year. The point I was making is that the biggest difference I have found between IAM, Rospa, and the DVSA is in peoples attitudes and not their driving style.

Possibly your own view of the DVSA driving is that it is defined, proscribed and closed and not open to other ideas. We all make judgements based on our own experience and many people have very little knowledge of the DVSA system other than taking a driving test many years ago. In truth all the systems in my experience have good and bad points.
I am therefore not dismissive of advanced driving. Training FLHs is my full time job and I train them to advanced level. I am hardly going to train FLHs to learner standards.
I don't have a closed view to any proven advanced technique however I wont be suggesting to my customers that they should not block gear change when changing up the gearbox :)

Rob


Agree - attitudes is one of the biggest issues, but then attitude could be seen to underpin what AD is all about, so perhaps no big surprise...

my view on DVSA is not developed - other than seeing what you are posting - I am enjoying seeing other views, however the over-riding feel I get is that it is all about verification / box-filling / being able to prove - rather than actual skill level, which is often lower without the above, but can be higher - and that is in my view a closed approach...

It is not that we shouldn't look for ways to verify / examine / qualify / etc. - and I can see how in your job it is essential - however it can be an artificial ceiling on going further as an advanced driver

and def. agree that block changing can work - I don't think there is any argument there - I am not sure that one IAM examiner's view is indicative of the IAM / advanced driving, so perhaps we should not use that to prove a point - but all accept that we all think that block changing when appropriate makes sense :)

Alasdair

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Postby RobC » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:47 pm


Silk wrote:
Hi Silk

I did my IAM test to further my knowledge. To say that I'm coming at this 'as someone who wouldn't have joined in the first place and unlikely to accept any of the rules' displays a lot of assumptions and prejudice towards someone you don't know at all and is entirely incorrect.


Rob,

My post wasn't directed at you. I was replying to Dave. He's well know for ploughing his own furrow, paddling his own canoe but not bashing anything at all. :mrgreen:


Hi Silk,

No problem, its easy to misinterpret forum posts :oops: You seem to have a reputation for being controversial, however it would be boring if we were all the same and not open to others viewpoints IMO. :?

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Postby RobC » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:12 pm


akirk wrote:

my view on DVSA is not developed - other than seeing what you are posting - I am enjoying seeing other views, however the over-riding feel I get is that it is all about verification / box-filling / being able to prove - rather than actual skill level, which is often lower without the above, but can be higher - and that is in my view a closed approach...
It is not that we shouldn't look for ways to verify / examine / qualify / etc. - and I can see how in your job it is essential - however it can be an artificial ceiling on going further as an advanced driver

Alasdair


Hi Alasdair

If you think that DVSA test is a closed system then you are going to assume that I am part of that system by implication, however Im capable of forming my own views.

The DVSA test isn't perfect but neither is the IAM. It is easy for a good driver to fail the DVSA learner test but at the same time it is unlikely that a poor driver will pass. The DVSA marking system is strict, but it is also strictly monitored to be as consistent and as fair as it can be. The system wouldn't allow for example an examiner to have his own ideas on block gear changing up the gearbox.

If you were to look at both the DVSA and IAM test systems, there are aspects of both that could benefit the other.
The problem is that peoples experiences are different and we can only give out opinion based on our own experiences. I may post a little controversially, however this can actually stimulate discussion which often modifies closed opinions on both sides.

Rob
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Postby vonhosen » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:30 pm


The criteria & assessment within the DVSA test (IME) is less prescriptive than in Police roadcraft based tests.
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:47 pm


Prescribed - something given by prescription, formulaic, pre-defined.
Proscribed - forbidden, not allowed, against the rules.

Best to look them up, before using words you're not sure about :)

PS I spent 10 minutes of my life yesterday listening to a former DVSA examiner expounding his views on driver testing, and why he was so good at it. 10 minutes I'll never get back ... :(
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Postby vonhosen » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:51 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Prescribed - something given by prescription, formulaic, pre-defined.
Proscribed - forbidden, not allowed, against the rules.

Please decide which you mean before using words you're not sure about :)


The Police is more prescriptive, as in the style, way or formula that must be used to achieve success.
The DVSA more outcome based.


As I said. :P
(What made you think II wasn't sure?)
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:59 pm


vonhosen wrote:
Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Prescribed - something given by prescription, formulaic, pre-defined.
Proscribed - forbidden, not allowed, against the rules.

Please decide which you mean before using words you're not sure about :)


The Police is more prescriptive, as in the style, way or formula that must be used to achieve success.
The DVSA more outcome based.


As I said. :P
(What made you think II wasn't sure?)


Not you - the two chaps above you arguing about whether the DVSA test was prescriptive or not. You were spot on :)
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Postby RobC » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:12 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:
PS I spent 10 minutes of my life yesterday listening to a former DVSA examiner expounding his views on driver testing, and why he was so good at it. 10 minutes I'll never get back ... :(


Hi CW

I know what you mean, but how many examiners DVSA or otherwise are going to give a talk on how bad they were at examining :D

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Postby akirk » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:56 pm


RobC wrote:
Hi Alasdair

If you think that DVSA test is a closed system then you are going to assume that I am part of that system by implication, however Im capable of forming my own views.

The DVSA test isn't perfect but neither is the IAM. It is easy for a good driver to fail the DVSA learner test but at the same time it is unlikely that a poor driver will pass. The DVSA marking system is strict, but it is also strictly monitored to be as consistent and as fair as it can be. The system wouldn't allow for example an examiner to have his own ideas on block gear changing up the gearbox.

If you were to look at both the DVSA and IAM test systems, there are aspects of both that could benefit the other.
The problem is that peoples experiences are different and we can only give out opinion based on our own experiences. I may post a little controversially, however this can actually stimulate discussion which often modifies closed opinions on both sides.

Rob


I think that there are 'closed' elements in both - in that both approaches in setting out to measure risk losing something... I don't have a problem with either - where I would have concerns is with anyone / any organisation that believes that only their system is any good / that something else can't have any value because they lack the skill set to analyse / quantify it...

realistically advanced driving can be seen on a scale with many levels - there are clearly points where it makes sense to standardise / box tick / etc. - and that has considerable value to a degree - but we mustn't forget that in fact there is even more to explore beyond that, much of which maybe is harder to evaluate scientifically but that doesn't make it any less 'good' if anything it makes it more interesting...

I don't feel that you are saying there is only one way of doing things - but sadly many in each organisation do, and that is short-sighted...

Alasdair
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Postby Silk » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:32 pm


RobC wrote:
Hi Silk,

No problem, its easy to misinterpret forum posts :oops: You seem to have a reputation for being controversial, however it would be boring if we were all the same and not open to others viewpoints IMO. :?

Rob


I suppose I only have myself to blame for everyone assuming I'm always being controversial, even when I'm not. :wink:

Similarly, it's easy for someone to miss something when listening in a room - especially when there is no verbatim record of the conversation to go back over. There may have been some context missed or it was directed at a particular audience.
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:47 pm


Silk wrote:There may have been some context missed or it was directed at a particular audience.

If it's any consolation, it was perfectly clear to me your post was aimed at Dave.
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Postby TripleS » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:48 am


Silk wrote:
TripleS wrote:Well then, unless there are some other benefits in continuing your membership, it would seem sensible to drop out and save yourself a few quid. That would be my response.


For that to be your response, you need to have signed up in the first place. You'll have to make do with cutting down trips to the garden centre if you want to save yourself a few quid. :wink:

Although I respect your not wanting to be an "official" advanced driver, you're coming at this as someone who wouldn't have joined up in the first place, so unlikely to accept any of the "rules" regardless.

All I can say on this subject is I've never heard anyone in the AD community, examiner or otherwise, do anything other than positively encourage flexible use of gears, both up and down the gearbox - it's one of the few things where you'll be unlikely to find any disagreement. Perhaps there has been some miscommunication somewhere.


My brief involvement with the IAM has been aired many times since it happened several years ago, so we need not go over that yet again. As things turned out I think I was (as vonhosen put it at the time) perhaps a bit naive in terms of how I hoped it would work. Well it didn't work, so that's that, but it was partly my fault.

As for economies at garden centres, my investments there are fairly modest, but I reckon they'll prove to be very good value by giving a great deal of quiet enjoyment for quite some time. On the other hand the prospects for enjoyable motoring now look to me to be less favourable, but I've had a good run, so I can accept that, but I feel sorry for the younger drivers, who are not going to be able to enjoy what I've enjoyed; but what you haven't experienced, you don't miss, so maybe it'll not be so bad for them.

With regard to being, or not being, an "official" advanced driver, it's not a matter of not wanting it. Of course it would be nice to have formal accreditation and recognition, but I honstly don't think I would qualify. I have my own mental picture of the kind of driving I admire and would like to produce, but it doesn't consist of only one style to be produced machine-like at all times: it would encompass a variety of styles depending on the the nature and purpose of the journey, the constraints imposed by the circumstances at the time, and my mood on the day.

I think my approach to the subject can be helpful, and may give considerable success in an informal fashion, but the probability is that it would not be sufficient for me to get all the boxes ticked in a formal assessment, so I guess I'll never be an 'advanced' driver, but I'm not overly concerned about that.

OK, just to show that I haven't completely lost sight of the original topic, I would suggest that in the right circumstances block changes are perfectly legitimate and beneficial, both up and down the 'box. :P

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby TripleS » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:00 am


Silk wrote:
RobC wrote:Hi Silk

I did my IAM test to further my knowledge. To say that I'm coming at this 'as someone who wouldn't have joined in the first place and unlikely to accept any of the rules' displays a lot of assumptions and prejudice towards someone you don't know at all and is entirely incorrect.


Rob,

My post wasn't directed at you. I was replying to Dave. He's well known for ploughing his own furrow, paddling his own canoe but not bashing anything at all. :mrgreen:


Yep, I think I'm a reasonably competent furrow plougher: I've started earthing up the potatoes. :lol:

As for bashing/non-bashing, I trust you'll allow me a little leeway when it comes to Brake. :evil:
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Postby kfae8959 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:37 am


akirk wrote:Rob, I think you need to first consider what the IAM is doing - they stand as a charity wishing to raise awareness / develop driving skills / etc. in as wide an area as possible...

While your concept of fewer full time / more professional examiners might make sense from a conceptual perspective, would it work for what they are doing? There is a fine balance in costs /benefits / perception when they are trying to sell the concept of AD to their market - the public - to increase costs may not be beneficial...

One of the questions, which I suspect we can't answer, is whether a higher standard of assessment / examiner matters...


There will be another space for discussion about the IAM's plans, I'm sure, but to summarize, the plan is a bit of both. There is now a small number of full-time, professional, regional examiners, working with and through voluntary local examiners and training team members (who are paid expenses). The IAM is a charity, but it also sells products (Skill for Life, older and younger Drivers' Assessments, Masters, and so on) and sees the need to provide them with a high degree of professionalism. One dimension of that is consistency between groups - not consistency of teaching style, but a consistency of approach and expectation that would mean someone could move from one end of the country to another in the middle of their SfL course and pick up where they left off. And far from cramping the style of observers, I believe that requires more flexibility, and greater understanding.

David
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