Block Gear Changes

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby RobC » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:15 pm


kfae8959 wrote:
StressedDave wrote:It isn't but neither the IAM nor RoSPA seem particularly bothered with the idea of consistency or even ensuring that the examiners are singing from the same hymn sheet. Persumably this costs money that they don't really have.


The IAM is currently working for greater consistency, because it recognises that its survival is dependent on it. But, as parts of this discussion show, local examiners are the key links in the chain: some have huge influence over local groups, but limited understanding. One thought is to start allocating tests in each area to a variety of examiners from further afield so that groups can no longer teach to the preferences of an individual.

David


Hi David

Totally agree that examiners are the key. Whilst local part time examiners may be cheap, highly trained full time examiners (perhaps covering a larger area) would be more professional in my opinion.
Fewer full time examiners may be more expensive overall but standards would be easier to monitor and it is better in my view to train fewer examiners to a higher standard.

Rob
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Postby akirk » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:49 pm


RobC wrote:
kfae8959 wrote:
StressedDave wrote:It isn't but neither the IAM nor RoSPA seem particularly bothered with the idea of consistency or even ensuring that the examiners are singing from the same hymn sheet. Persumably this costs money that they don't really have.


The IAM is currently working for greater consistency, because it recognises that its survival is dependent on it. But, as parts of this discussion show, local examiners are the key links in the chain: some have huge influence over local groups, but limited understanding. One thought is to start allocating tests in each area to a variety of examiners from further afield so that groups can no longer teach to the preferences of an individual.

David


Hi David

Totally agree that examiners are the key. Whilst local part time examiners may be cheap, highly trained full time examiners (perhaps covering a larger area) would be more professional in my opinion.
Fewer full time examiners may be more expensive overall but standards would be easier to monitor and it is better in my view to train fewer examiners to a higher standard.

Rob


Rob, I think you need to first consider what the IAM is doing - they stand as a charity wishing to raise awareness / develop drivin skills / etc. in as wide an area as possible...

While your concept of fewer full time / more professional examiners might make sense from a conceptual perspective, would it work for what they are doing? There is a fine balance in costs /benefits / perception when they are trying to sell the concept of AD to their market - the public - to increase costs may not be beneficial...

One of the questions, which I suspect we can't answer, is whether a higher standard of assessment / examiner matters... if what is there is sufficient to recognise a driver being at a more advanced level, and the cost equation works in terms of not making it too expensive so that people don't apply, then perhaps that is all that is needed?

To increase quality of examiners to professional full time examiners might be lovely from the perspective of running the organisation - but if in turn it altered costs and less people signed up - would the charity perhaps be less overall influential - have done less to help promote advanced driving / etc.?

ultimately their examiners need only be just good enough - consistency makes a lot of sense as there is a brand to maintain and you don't want issues / complaints - but there might be no justification to go to the next level...

Alasdair
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Postby RobC » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:15 pm


Hi Alasdair

I agree that any changes have to be cost effective and that any possible changes are part of a much wider picture.
In my view IAM membership costs aren't high at less than the cost of a magazine subscription, yet with 100,000 members out of maybe 20 million or so licence holders there must be scope to increase membership and income so that improvements can be made :?

Of course that a whole different subject thread than block gear changes..... and not one I'm going to start :|

Rob
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Postby TripleS » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:54 pm


RobC wrote:....at a talk our examiner said that the Police never block change changing up, saying it would over rev the engine and my local group accepted that :cry:
Rob


It would appear that (at least part of) your local group is too ready to accept dogma/sweeping statements and poor advice. You need to put them right before they get more seriously misled. :lol:

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby TripleS » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:55 pm


fengpo wrote:Is RobC, Silk in disguise? Always looking to start a debate.


Clearly not. RobC appears to have a clue. :wink:
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Postby Silk » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:10 pm


TripleS wrote:
fengpo wrote:Is RobC, Silk in disguise? Always looking to start a debate.


Clearly not. RobC appears to have a clue. :wink:


He should get that seen to immediately. We can't be having clues around here. Clues lead to ideas and goodness knows what else. Before you know it, there'll be an outbreak of independent thought. :shock:
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Postby RobC » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:42 pm


TripleS wrote:
RobC wrote:....at a talk our examiner said that the Police never block change changing up, saying it would over rev the engine and my local group accepted that :cry:
Rob


It would appear that (at least part of) your local group is too ready to accept dogma/sweeping statements and poor advice. You need to put them right before they get more seriously misled. :lol:

Best wishes all,
Dave.


Hi Dave

The discussion was some time ago and the problem is that it's the examiner who takes the tests and who's opinion counts.
No-one is infallible but If you can't rely on the examiners knowledge and if I'm going to question the examiners judgement, I didn't really see the point of renewing my subscription.

Regards Rob
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Postby TripleS » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:05 pm


Silk wrote:
TripleS wrote:
fengpo wrote:Is RobC, Silk in disguise? Always looking to start a debate.


Clearly not. RobC appears to have a clue. :wink:


He should get that seen to immediately. We can't be having clues around here. Clues lead to ideas and goodness knows what else. Before you know it, there'll be an outbreak of independent thought. :shock:


Oh well, we can't be doing with that; compliance is vital. Unfortunately I can't manage it. :lol:
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Postby jcochrane » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:18 am


RobC wrote:
kfae8959 wrote:
StressedDave wrote:It isn't but neither the IAM nor RoSPA seem particularly bothered with the idea of consistency or even ensuring that the examiners are singing from the same hymn sheet. Persumably this costs money that they don't really have.


The IAM is currently working for greater consistency, because it recognises that its survival is dependent on it. But, as parts of this discussion show, local examiners are the key links in the chain: some have huge influence over local groups, but limited understanding. One thought is to start allocating tests in each area to a variety of examiners from further afield so that groups can no longer teach to the preferences of an individual.

David


Hi David

Totally agree that examiners are the key. Whilst local part time examiners may be cheap, highly trained full time examiners (perhaps covering a larger area) would be more professional in my opinion.
Fewer full time examiners may be more expensive overall but standards would be easier to monitor and it is better in my view to train fewer examiners to a higher standard.

Rob

I would agree with David and akirk. The point I feel you may have missed is David said "but limited understanding" The last thing we want is rigid dogmatism enforced from on high.That has been tried already which has lead to untold problems being now currently worked on to resolve and repair the damage it caused. Examiners need a wider understanding that goes beyond the narrow training of their particular Police Driving School.
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Postby TripleS » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:22 am


RobC wrote:
TripleS wrote:
RobC wrote:....at a talk our examiner said that the Police never block change changing up, saying it would over rev the engine and my local group accepted that :cry:
Rob


It would appear that (at least part of) your local group is too ready to accept dogma/sweeping statements and poor advice. You need to put them right before they get more seriously misled. :lol:

Best wishes all,
Dave.


Hi Dave

The discussion was some time ago and the problem is that it's the examiner who takes the tests and who's opinion counts.
No-one is infallible but If you can't rely on the examiners knowledge and if I'm going to question the examiners judgement, I didn't really see the point of renewing my subscription.

Regards Rob


Well then, unless there are some other benefits in continuing your membership, it would seem sensible to drop out and save yourself a few quid. That would be my response.

If you can't see sense in what the experts are telling you, there's little point in continuing the relationship with them. You need to be looking elsewhere; or paddling your own canoe, which I'm sure you're well able to do. 8)

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby RobC » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:23 pm


TripleS wrote:
Well then, unless there are some other benefits in continuing your membership, it would seem sensible to drop out and save yourself a few quid. That would be my response.

If you can't see sense in what the experts are telling you, there's little point in continuing the relationship with them. You need to be looking elsewhere; or paddling your own canoe, which I'm sure you're well able to do. 8)

Best wishes all,
Dave.


Hi Dave

I only disagree with some of the things one local group examiners said. In contrast actually found myself agreeing with everything one particular examiner commented on here.
I'm probably different than most on here because I provide courses and assess drivers full time for a living, essentially as you say paddling my own canoe, though I'm still learning new things all the time. I don't necessarily want to come home and then attend local driving groups in my spare time, though I'm sure there are some excellent groups.

Also there are some excellent comments and opinions on here so thanks for yours.

Regards Rob
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Postby Silk » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:02 pm


TripleS wrote:Well then, unless there are some other benefits in continuing your membership, it would seem sensible to drop out and save yourself a few quid. That would be my response.


For that to be your response, you need to have signed up in the first place. You'll have to make do with cutting down trips to the garden centre if you want to save yourself a few quid. :wink:

Although I respect your not wanting to be an "official" advanced driver, you're coming at this as someone who wouldn't have joined up in the first place, so unlikely to accept any of the "rules" regardless.

All I can say on this subject is I've never heard anyone in the AD community, examiner or otherwise, do anything other than positively encourage flexible use of gears, both up and down the gearbox - it's one of the few things where you'll be unlikely to find any disagreement. Perhaps there has been some miscommunication somewhere.
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Postby RobC » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:57 pm


Silk wrote:
TripleS wrote:Well then, unless there are some other benefits in continuing your membership, it would seem sensible to drop out and save yourself a few quid. That would be my response.


Although I respect your not wanting to be an "official" advanced driver, you're coming at this as someone who wouldn't have joined up in the first place, so unlikely to accept any of the "rules" regardless.

All I can say on this subject is I've never heard anyone in the AD community, examiner or otherwise, do anything other than positively encourage flexible use of gears, both up and down the gearbox - it's one of the few things where you'll be unlikely to find any disagreement. Perhaps there has been some miscommunication somewhere.


Hi Silk

I did my IAM test to further my knowledge. To say that I'm coming at this 'as someone who wouldn't have joined in the first place and unlikely to accept any of the rules' displays a lot of assumptions and prejudice towards someone you don't know at all and is entirely incorrect.
You probably wont be on your own with your opinion however which is a great shame to me as I have experience of both DVSA and IAM and the biggest difference is not driving standards but peoples attitudes. To that end I'm probably wasting my time posting on here because no one is really interested in my opinions or experiences.

Despite having had quite a lot of training and taken various tests before I took my IAM, I see myself as a trainer by profession and not an 'advanced driver'. This is unlike someone I know who passed his IAM in the 1970's and has considered himself an advanced driver ever since despite having had no further training.

The one thing we do agree on is the use of block gear changes up the gearbox. And no there hasn't been any miscommunication, the examiners comments I quoted were also quoted word for word in the local group newsletter.

Rob
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Postby akirk » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:42 pm


RobC wrote:
Silk wrote:
TripleS wrote:Well then, unless there are some other benefits in continuing your membership, it would seem sensible to drop out and save yourself a few quid. That would be my response.


Although I respect your not wanting to be an "official" advanced driver, you're coming at this as someone who wouldn't have joined up in the first place, so unlikely to accept any of the "rules" regardless.

All I can say on this subject is I've never heard anyone in the AD community, examiner or otherwise, do anything other than positively encourage flexible use of gears, both up and down the gearbox - it's one of the few things where you'll be unlikely to find any disagreement. Perhaps there has been some miscommunication somewhere.


Hi Silk

I did my IAM test to further my knowledge. To say that I'm coming at this 'as someone who wouldn't have joined in the first place and unlikely to accept any of the rules' displays a lot of assumptions and prejudice towards someone you don't know at all and is entirely incorrect.
You probably wont be on your own with your opinion however which is a great shame to me as I have experience of both DVSA and IAM and the biggest difference is not driving standards but peoples attitudes. To that end I'm probably wasting my time posting on here because no one is really interested in my opinions or experiences.

Despite having had quite a lot of training and taken various tests before I took my IAM, I see myself as a trainer by profession and not an 'advanced driver'. This is unlike someone I know who passed his IAM in the 1970's and has considered himself an advanced driver ever since despite having had no further training.

The one thing we do agree on is the use of block gear changes up the gearbox. And no there hasn't been any miscommunication, the examiners comments I quoted were also quoted word for word in the local group newsletter.

Rob


Rob - folks on here by nature tend to be very interested in lots of perspectives - by its nature, Advanced Driving is about using all sorts of skills to improve one's driving - it is open in its perspective and very much welcoming of a variety of views or options in the toolbox the driver uses... (of course there are exceptions...) - however DVSA driving, and your view seems to come across as very defined / proscribed and closed - not open to other ideas which is perhaps a shame - you seem very dismissive of advanced driving and the IAM et al - for example your comment about someone who passed the IAM in the 1970s and considers himself an advanced driver without further training - this is flawed logic - advanced driving doesn't exist because of training courses / qualifications (though they undoubtedly can help) - it is totally possible for someone to go 40 years without training and to be an advanced driver - much may depend on their attitudes / self awareness / etc. of course we all know that they may have fallen back a bit - but your conclusions are not sound... I did the IAM in the late 90s and nearly 20 years later needed only a couple of hours refresher before successfully completing the much much more advanced HPC course... It was clear that while there was still a long way I could develop, I had remained an advanced driver over c. 20 years without training...

I would agree though there does seem to be a difference in attitudes, but for one I am always interested in other views - I would just hope that those others are equally open in their views, not so summarily dismissive...

Alasdair
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Postby Silk » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:10 pm


RobC wrote:
Silk wrote:
TripleS wrote:Well then, unless there are some other benefits in continuing your membership, it would seem sensible to drop out and save yourself a few quid. That would be my response.


Although I respect your not wanting to be an "official" advanced driver, you're coming at this as someone who wouldn't have joined up in the first place, so unlikely to accept any of the "rules" regardless.

All I can say on this subject is I've never heard anyone in the AD community, examiner or otherwise, do anything other than positively encourage flexible use of gears, both up and down the gearbox - it's one of the few things where you'll be unlikely to find any disagreement. Perhaps there has been some miscommunication somewhere.


Hi Silk

I did my IAM test to further my knowledge. To say that I'm coming at this 'as someone who wouldn't have joined in the first place and unlikely to accept any of the rules' displays a lot of assumptions and prejudice towards someone you don't know at all and is entirely incorrect.


Rob,

My post wasn't directed at you. I was replying to Dave. He's well know for ploughing his own furrow, paddling his own canoe but not bashing anything at all. :mrgreen:
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