New IAM standards

[TripleS]

Some of us just drive, smugly talk about having covered over a million miles of driving and stand outside the tent pissing in because they have no understanding of the problem.

What problem?

I'm not sure where you get the "smug" from. It's a simple statement of fact that I do a lot of driving - I'm not suggesting for one moment that experience alone makes me any better than someone who may have had better training or is just naturally more skilled, only that it gives me a different perspective to someone who doesn't drive as much, but spends more time studying the subject. If you're looking for smugness on this forum, you need to look elsewhere - you won't need to look far.

Oh, is it me you're looking for? I do hope not.

[Silk]

Some of us just drive, smugly talk about having covered over a million miles of driving and stand outside the tent pissing in because they have no understanding of the problem.

What problem?

I'm not sure where you get the "smug" from. It's a simple statement of fact that I do a lot of driving - I'm not suggesting for one moment that experience alone makes me any better than someone who may have had better training or is just naturally more skilled, only that it gives me a different perspective to someone who doesn't drive as much, but spends more time studying the subject. If you're looking for smugness on this forum, you need to look elsewhere - you won't need to look far.

Oh, is it me you're looking for? I do hope not.

I think you're probably the opposite of smug. Anti-smug, if you like.

[Silk]

Back on topic: I do not believe for one minute that such huge percentages as suggested have never heard of the IAM. e.g. the Top Gear audience is huge and the image of the IAM presented there is of "coffee beans" wheel shufflers. That kind of thing sticks and that is the kind of image and exposure that the IAM are up against.

I went along to a local group meeting a while ago as a guest of a member here. I went along because I wanted to hear a talk by the head of the local police driving school - it was very interesting BTW - and I think, even being over 50 myself, I lowered the average age in the room by a good few years. Everything other than the talk that I went for was everything that you could imagine to put people off the IAM.

Not a lot to disagree with there I'm afraid.

The question is, what do we do about it? And don't suggest euthanasia - even I wouldn't suggest that.

[Silk]

The question is, what do we do about it?

The question before that is, "do you want/need to do anything about it". If yes, why?

What is actually "wrong" with the IAM as it is? The people who were at the group meeting all seemed perfectly happy. It just wasn't my kind of place. I go elsewhere for driving socialisation.

Before the IAM can decide how best to achieve any change that it wants, it will need to define what it wants to change into. And I haven't seen that answered yet.

Again, good points - you're on a bit of a roll.

You're right. There's a certain core membership who seem to believe that it's just a case of getting the message out and everyone will want to be like them.

I don't even think it's an age thing. It's much more a class thing. The vast majority of IAM members are from the middle classes and have absolutely no idea how ordinary people live - especially young boy-racers. It's no good simply having young drivers in the IAM if they're unrepresentative of young drivers in general.

[Kimosabe]

The question is, what do we do about it?

The question before that is, "do you want/need to do anything about it". If yes, why?

What is actually "wrong" with the IAM as it is? The people who were at the group meeting all seemed perfectly happy. It just wasn't my kind of place. I go elsewhere for driving socialisation.

Before the IAM can decide how best to achieve any change that it wants, it will need to define what it wants to change into. And I haven't seen that answered yet.

Again, good points - you're on a bit of a roll.

You're right. There's a certain core membership who seem to believe that it's just a case of getting the message out and everyone will want to be like them.

I don't even think it's an age thing. It's much more a class thing. The vast majority of IAM members are from the middle classes and have absolutely no idea how ordinary people live - especially young boy-racers. It's no good simply having young drivers in the IAM if they're unrepresentative of young drivers in general.

So are you suggesting some sort of under 25's IAM scheme that would help young drivers to not only be safer drivers but to also reduce their insurance premiums? I can't imagine many U25's putting up with the shenanigans which take place at group meetings and AGMs (at least not the ones i've attended), so perhaps the IAM would need to form a separate criteria for them? This is assuming that they would have heard of the IAM and if they had, would be attracted to try what they have to offer and stick with it.

I think the point at which organisations eg IAM, RoADAR are most useful to young drivers, is a couple of years after they've past their L tests. That's when they've assimilated their abilities and have possibly begun to drive as they are, which is to say (and i'm generalising here) fast, influenced by popular culture and possibly a bit fickle. Where does the IAM discuss the pros and cons of alloy wheels, wide tyres, lowered suspension, exhausts and all the other personalised things young people often do to their cars without really knowing what it's all about? You know, the mods which are so aggressively marketed at their age group? There was a time when I would change my tyres just because eg Yokohama had a really trendy tread pattern. I once fitted a K&N air filter to my Fiat Tipo 1.6, it made a difference but nobody was around to explain it to me. Did I know any more than that? Not really. Did I want to? Yes.

On reflection, the IAM first came to my attention when I was under 25 because my then boss was part of his IAM group's committee. I went for a couple of observed drives and a meeting or two as a guest and never went back, because there wasn't enough loud, bright and shiny things to entice me to stay, not to mention that all but one of the group observers was under around 60 years of age. I wanted action and what I saw was anything but; at least that was my perception as I recall it. Any mention of alloy wheels, wide tyres and large exhausts was met with the sort of scorn which some ADers still demonstrate whenever 10-2 PP is raised as only one way to hold a steering wheel. Of course, some expect me to say that I feel differently about the IAM now. There answer to that can be seen from how many meetings and AGMs I attended and the average age of those who did.

I see a new light in the current IAM and I remain optimistic that the powers that be are looking at this with a view to further changes. Good on 'em!

[akirk]

So are you suggesting some sort of under 25's IAM scheme that would help young drivers to not only be safer drivers but to also reduce their insurance premiums? I can't imagine many U25's putting up with the shenanigans which take place at group meetings and AGMs (at least not the ones i've attended), so perhaps the IAM would need to form a separate criteria for them? This is assuming that they would have heard of the IAM and if they had, would be attracted to try what they have to offer and stick with it.

That isn't a bad idea...

one of the balancing acts the IAM needs to tackle is group membership:
1 - if the core aim of the IAM is to get people to improve their driving, then new people are very likely put off by the group systems / profiles / dynamics
2 - if the need is more focused on long term & continual improvement then the groups are needed to foster that
3 - under the current system the groups provide the observers so without them the IAM doesn't work
4- other than the observer system, the groups arguably provide little to support the work of dealing with encouraging new members and bringing them through to completion of SfL
5 - perhaps the groups keep some people as members and therfore paying fees...

If the IAM could handle the observer system differently, there might be an argument to sideline the groups into a more social aspect of the IAM - not the route for skill development - it is one of the blocks. I don't think that 2 is happening in any great degree, so arguably the IAM is primarily about no 1. and therefore there is an issue to be dealt with.

When I joined the IAM in 1997-8 and did my test, I went to one group meeting which wasn't very inspiring and certainly put me off any further involvement once I had passed...

So, I would agree - there is an opportunity for the IAM - but sensitive decisions!

Alasdair

[waremark]

Plus ca change .....

The IAM has tried to set up a youth section and has also tried specific products aimed at youth. Was it Max Power Max Driver? Others should remember more about these initiatives. They have not been able to find a formula with broad youth appeal. No doubt they will keep trying.

[hir]

Back on topic: I do not believe for one minute that such huge percentages as suggested have never heard of the IAM. e.g. the Top Gear audience is huge and the image of the IAM presented there is of "coffee beans" wheel shufflers. That kind of thing sticks and that is the kind of image and exposure that the IAM are up against.

The average Top Gear audience was approx. 5 million. There are approximately 33 million driving licence holders. So, the Top Gear audience represents approx 15% of all driving licence holders. The "shuffle" comments will almost certainly be completely lost on a third of the viewers so that leaves approx 10% of all licence holders whose views on advanced driving have been twisted and tainted by Top Gear.

OK, So, I was 100% out.

But, that still doesn't demonstrate that a large proportion of the general public have never heard of the IAM. So, I still maintain that... such [almost] huge percentages as suggested have never heard of the IAM.

[Carbon Based]

Where does the IAM discuss the pros and cons of alloy wheels, wide tyres, lowered suspension, exhausts and all the other personalised things young people often do to their cars without really knowing what it's all about?

Possibly answered here: https://youtu.be/gy20HpzruDo

[Silk]

So are you suggesting some sort of under 25's IAM scheme that would help young drivers to not only be safer drivers but to also reduce their insurance premiums?

That's been done and doesn't work. Even when you attract under 25s, they tend to be the offspring of teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc. They're usually the sort of kids who handed in their homework on time and passed all their exams. To have any chance of success, you need to be able to target all under 25s, regardless of background.

[Silk]

Plus ca change .....

The IAM has tried to set up a youth section and has also tried specific products aimed at youth. Was it Max Power Max Driver? Others should remember more about these initiatives. They have not been able to find a formula with broad youth appeal. No doubt they will keep trying.

What they didn't realise is most young drivers didn't see Max Power as any cooler than the IAM - it's probably less cool if anything. In the end, it has very little to do with cool. Most people of any age are quite happy to settle into a comfort zone - only changing if it's absolutely necessary or they can see an immediate benefit, such as keeping in with their mates and attracting the opposite sex.

[zadocbrown]

So are you suggesting some sort of under 25's IAM scheme that would help young drivers to not only be safer drivers but to also reduce their insurance premiums?

That's been done and doesn't work. Even when you attract under 25s, they tend to be the offspring of teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc. They're usually the sort of kids who handed in their homework on time and passed all their exams. To have any chance of success, you need to be able to target all under 25s, regardless of background.

Under 25 groups are not going to happen, because such a concept depends on the formation of a homogeneous social group. Being under 25 and into cars/driving does not constitute a homogeneous social group. We aren't going to get the max power boys lying down with the shy doctor's daughters or with the grammar school geeks etc etc.

[akirk]

isn't this slightly inside-out thinking though - saying that the under-25s are most at risk, so we should target them by finding out what interests them...

perhaps instead the logic should flow:
- what does IAM offer (safer driver?)
- who does that benefit (gov. / insurance companies / parents / under-25s / the public)
- which of those groups cares about reducing the stats in that age group (gov. / insurance / poss. parents)
- how do you incentivise them to incentivise the under-25s?

e.g. if you can show a 25% - 50% reduction in accidents and the consequential saving of life / injury and on-costs - then gov. could make it compulsory / insurance companies could reduce premiums substantially / etc.

but I suspect the issue is that while we know that AD can make someone a safer driver, we also understand that there needs to be a desire on the behalf of the driver to actually practice AD in real life all the time for this to be the case...

it is not in the passing of the IAM test that you become safer, it is driving at a more advanced level that makes you safer...

so I suspect that you could put a million young drivers through the IAM course and without the desire to drive in an AD way, it will not make a substantial difference - if it did then the basic test they go through would be enough to ensure that the accident stats were lower than they are...

so it is not about joining the IAM / or passing the test - either of which would allow the IAM to make a solid case to the insurers / gov. - it is in choosing how to drive afterwards and if the under 25s are not interested then the IAM / AD is irrelevant - and that age group feels invincible and lacks the maturity to understand the impact of their driving - a bad combination and certainly not one conducive to an interest in AD

so in reality it probably won't happen

Alasdair

[Silk]

We aren't going to get the max power boys lying down with the shy doctor's daughters.

Just you try and stop them.

[Kimosabe]

So are you suggesting some sort of under 25's IAM scheme that would help young drivers to not only be safer drivers but to also reduce their insurance premiums?

That's been done and doesn't work. Even when you attract under 25s, they tend to be the offspring of teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc. They're usually the sort of kids who handed in their homework on time and passed all their exams. To have any chance of success, you need to be able to target all under 25s, regardless of background.

errrmmmmmm...... errrrr.... when you say..... oh never mind....