New IAM standards

[RobC]

I have a fleet customer who uses telematics and drivers receive a monthly report giving a percentage based upon those parameters. There has been a 25% reduction in collisions and a reduction in fuel used and drivers compete to get the best scores.

The driver who has consistently the worst percentage score however is a former class 1 police driver!

Does this say anything about the lack of correlation between advanced driving and type of driving that the boxes promote?

Hi Gareth

The telematics in this instance only assess speed, braking, accelerating, cornering force and location. Therefore only smooth driving at legal or otherwise speeds can be assessed. If telematics could assess advanced driving then there wouldn't be any need for IAM observers....... or fleet driver trainers

Rob

[jont]

The telematics in this instance only assess speed, braking, accelerating, cornering force and location. Therefore only smooth driving at legal or otherwise speeds can be assessed. If telematics could assess advanced driving then there wouldn't be any need for IAM observers....... or fleet driver trainers

Smooth != low g-force
I'm sure StressedDave has said on here before - the human body is more sensitive to rate-of-change-of-acceleration than amount of acceleration, so you can drive smoothly and still invoke lots of g-force if you are good.

I'm still waiting for insurers to publicise how they have arrived at the values they have chosen for "good/ok/bad" driving.

[akirk]

...but I bet if you looked at the standard deviation of his scores compared to his peers over each separate journey made, it'd be a f$ck of a lot lower. There's a lot to be said for consistency.

so a truly dreadful driver who is consistently bad would also have low SD and high consistency!
the basic issue is that you can't measure by computer that which is analogue not digital... you can't measure observation / the surroundings / even the weather etc. How does the box actually know the speed limit - esp. if temporary limits are in place - so does it pick up accurately the 40/40 crowd who drive in villages and NSL at a constant 40 - does it know which lane you are in / should be in on the motorway and pick up the middle lane hoggers?

As a country we are apparently obsessed with measurability to the detriment of so many things - and this is another example - lets call xyz style of driving good because it is what we can measure - not because it is actually good driving...

I suspect the reduction in accidents etc. is more of a psychological effect of having a box in the car... it will change a lot of drivers...

Alasdair

[akirk]

How does the box actually know the speed limit

GPS - it's a standard feature in most and with a fully connected telematics, can take in all the info regarding temporary limits. Have a nose a roadworks.org sometime - it captures absolutely everything.

It can do - but my TomTom which is their top of the range with traffic system etc. is not unknown to get speed limits wrong - esp. when a 60 is dropped to 50 - it can take a long time to update accurately - temporary speed limits are usually wrong and there is a junction in our village which was switched around to make the turning into the main road, and vice versa over 20 years ago and it is still wrong on GPS systems... So I have little faith in the accuracy of such systems - and I have no doubt that insurance / enforcement agencies / etc. will believe them to be absolutely infallible when they are clearly not

Alasdair

[jcochrane]

This - sort of...

If it were me doing this sort of thing, I'd be looking at quite a few things beyond simple acceleration measurement..........etc.

This post of SD's for me explains why these black boxes are a "load of bovine rear discharge " as a means of measuring advanced or good driving.

[RobC]

This - sort of...

If it were me doing this sort of thing, I'd be looking at quite a few things beyond simple acceleration measurement..........etc.

This post of SD's for me explains why these black boxes are a "load of bovine rear discharge " as a means of measuring advanced or good driving.

Telematics are a useful tool, but obviously they lack the human input and cannot judge observations, manoeuvres, positioning and many other aspects of driving. Like them or not we are going to see more of them and many fleet companies and formula one teams could not do without them.
There's also a big increase in the usage of dashcams by driving professionals and many ADIs use these as training aids to replay pupils driving and are allowed on DVSA tests.

Neither are going to replace trainers or examiners but are useful, and some may say essential tools nevertheless.

[trashbat]

Telematics are a useful tool, but obviously they lack the human input and cannot judge observations, manoeuvres, positioning and many other aspects of driving.

And so it is with postcodes and profiling, yet people are comparatively happy with that

I think telematics have a valuable place, although maybe not in these early iterations.

[Horse]

I'm still waiting for insurers to publicise how they have arrived at the values they have chosen for "good/ok/bad" driving.

I would imagine that commercial pressures (IP etc.) would make that highly unlikely.

Worth noting that when the Hazard Perception Test was introduced, it resulted in an 11% drop in casualties.

[RobC]

Telematics are a useful tool, but obviously they lack the human input and cannot judge observations, manoeuvres, positioning and many other aspects of driving.

And so it is with postcodes and profiling, yet people are comparatively happy with that

I think telematics have a valuable place, although maybe not in these early iterations.

Hi Trashbat

I've got a course in the Midlands this week and id rather follow the Sat Nav's directions than anyone else's even though it occasionally make mistakes.

Don't forget that any error programmed in to sat/nav/telematics is human error, and even trainers and examiners arent 100% correct all of the time

Rob

[MGF]

...

Using technology to solve a human problem is both lazy and stupid.

That might preclude the invention of the motor car.

This - sort of...

If it were me doing this sort of thing, I'd be looking at quite a few things beyond simple acceleration measurement..........etc.

This post of SD's for me explains why these black boxes are a "load of bovine rear discharge " as a means of measuring advanced or good driving.

From an insurer's point of view they don't need to measure good driving but simply need to reduce the incidences of bad driving. If high risk driving is characterised by not being smooth then encouraging smoothness is likely to mitigate that risk.

The argument really is how we define good driving. I don't think that insurers and those practising advanced driving need to agree for them both to be right.

[RobC]

That's the kind of thinking that sends 44tonne lorries through small villages where they get stuck.

I'll think you find in the main that that's the results of trucker buying normal car satnavs rather than LGV specific sets that actually have all the height restrictions programmed in to avoid this sort of thing happening.

I am not referring to height restrictions specifically. I am talking about roads that are wholly unsuitable for vehicle of that size/width/length. Yes, it may often be down to the use of "car" satnavs but the point is the same. It's still broken thinking

Luckily I'm going to the Midlands in my Mini Cooper and not a 44 ton truck

I take your point though as I don't rely totally on a Sat Nav which may think that the quickest way to Bilston is past Hilton Park and though Wolverhampton in rush hour

[trashbat]

Telematics are a useful tool, but obviously they lack the human input and cannot judge observations, manoeuvres, positioning and many other aspects of driving.

And so it is with postcodes and profiling, yet people are comparatively happy with that

I think telematics have a valuable place, although maybe not in these early iterations.

Hi Trashbat

I've got a course in the Midlands this week and id rather follow the Sat Nav's directions than anyone else's even though it occasionally make mistakes.

I think you might have misunderstood what I meant.

Telematics insurance premiums might be calculated partly based on a blunt & crude instrument for judging risk, but so are non-telematics ones - algorithms for determining the aggregate risk of people who match your location, age, until recently your gender, etcetera, without you personally going anywhere near a vehicle. Noone seems too bothered about that.

[RobC]

And so it is with postcodes and profiling, yet people are comparatively happy with that

I think telematics have a valuable place, although maybe not in these early iterations.

Hi Trashbat

I've got a course in the Midlands this week and id rather follow the Sat Nav's directions than anyone else's even though it occasionally make mistakes.

I think you might have misunderstood what I meant.

Telematics insurance premiums might be calculated partly based on a blunt & crude instrument for judging risk, but so are non-telematics ones - algorithms for determining the aggregate risk of people who match your location, age, until recently your gender, etcetera, without you personally going anywhere near a vehicle. Noone seems too bothered about that.

Ahh I see postcodes as to insurance premiums rather than postcodes due to sat nav errors.

Yes I agree that at least telematics can assess at least some aspects of your driving whilst usually car insurance bases risk on claims and many other factors apart from your driving ability.

Which brings me around to car insurance discounts for IAM members again

[TripleS]

The insurance companies seem to have decided that giving young drivers black boxes is the way forward. I am fairly convinced that these do not assess the quality of driving. I assume however that they do reduce risk, because their presence makes drivers make more effort to drive sensibly.

Hi Mark

One study showed that telematics gave a 20% reduction in crashes in 18 to 23 year olds. The use of telematics is likely to spread and not just for younger drivers. Formula One, emergency services and the Fleet industry widely uses telematics which can assess any number of things including speed, braking and acceleration force, cornering force and location.
I have a fleet customer who uses telematics and drivers receive a monthly report giving a percentage based upon those parameters. There has been a 25% reduction in collisions and a reduction in fuel used and drivers compete to get the best scores. The driver who has consistently the worst percentage score however is a former class 1 police driver!

Rob

Even so, I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that he's less safe than the others. Is there any evidence to indicate that he is less safe?

[Silk]

Some of us just drive, smugly talk about having covered over a million miles of driving and stand outside the tent pissing in because they have no understanding of the problem.

What problem?

I'm not sure where you get the "smug" from. It's a simple statement of fact that I do a lot of driving - I'm not suggesting for one moment that experience alone makes me any better than someone who may have had better training or is just naturally more skilled, only that it gives me a different perspective to someone who doesn't drive as much, but spends more time studying the subject. If you're looking for smugness on this forum, you need to look elsewhere - you won't need to look far.