ADUK Archive

The discussion on black boxes on this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5058
are interesting, but perhaps moving off topic there, so rather than extend that direction of conversation I thought I would start a new thread...

having just taken delivery of a Skoda Octavia Scout (about an hour ago!) I have been reading the manual and noted that it has SmartGate built in:
http://www.skoda-auto.com/en/experience ... smartgate/

This allows me to connect my phone by wifi to the car and pick up lots of diagnostic information:

The communication is one-way only. The vehicle data can be only read, not changed. The SmartGate is independent on MirrorLinkTM.

Examples of available vehicle data:
1. Battery voltage
2. Fuel consumption (per kilometre, per hour, overall)
3. Trip computer
4. Speed
5. Information equivalent to dashboard warning lights
6. Gear indicator and gearshift recommendation
7. Automatic transmission mode
8. G-meter (lateral, longitudinal)
9. Vehicle speed
10. Engine revs
11. Start/Stop status
12. Brake position
13. Service information (number of days/kilometres to the next oil change/service, VIN)
14. Steering wheel angle

but note:
- the vehicle data can only be read, not changed
- stores speed / vehicle speed / G-meter / engine revs / brake position / steering wheel angle / etc.

mmm - black boxes built in whether you want them or not?
in an accident - will that data be available / usable / etc.?
big brother is already here...

bearing in mind that the car has GPS built in for its sat nav system - are they tied together?

Alasdair

FWIW, much of that information is available from any car (at least, post-2004) via the OBD-II interface. It's really this that makes telematics possible; at least, anything more than a dumb accelerometer.

trashbat wrote:FWIW, much of that information is available from any car (at least, post-2004) via the OBD-II interface. It's really this that makes telematics possible; at least, anything more than a dumb accelerometer.

Yes, I have a small Bluetooth OBD2 adapter which you can pair with a phone or tablet and get similar information from. It's quite impressive really, considering it only cost £6.

The nature and scope of the data gathering set out by Alasdair is quite interesting, but as far as I'm concerned that data should only be accessible to the owner of the vehicle, who, where appropriate, can make part of it available to others for the purpose of servicing and maintaining the vehicle.

The idea that more or less anybody can access that data is tantamount to a car having the ability to snitch on its owner, and report his transgressions in respect of speed limits, for example, and who knows what else.

I expect most people will say it's now the way of the world etc., and accept it; but I don't think we should.

Contrast this level of monitoring and control of private individuals by government and the car makers, with the total inability of government to force the food industry to stop putting excessive salt and other damaging chemicals into so much of our food.

I don't know that the data is available any more than in real time... or whether it is stored etc. but I suspect that it is stored - if nothing else, you can't calculate mpg over time / average speed over time without recording and storing something - yes, it might average in real time and store that, but I somehow doubt it

as to whether someone else had access - I am sure a court could order access if it came to that...

now there might be a reason why my next project is a 1970s mg with a v8 with no computers

Alasdair

trashbat wrote:FWIW, much of that information is available from any car (at least, post-2004) via the OBD-II interface. It's really this that makes telematics possible; at least, anything more than a dumb accelerometer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-25928359

Samuel Etherington thought he could conceal the speed his car was travelling at when he drove into two teenage girls and killed them. But a piece of technology fitted to his vehicle revealed the truth. Key to catching the 20-year-old was a so-called "black box" which was fitted to his Honda Civic after a previous driving conviction

Antonio Singh Boparan is widely reported as being the first UK motorist to be convicted on the evidence of a black box recorder. It was fitted to the car he was driving when he rammed into Cerys Edwards' parents' car in Sutton Coldfield in 2006, leaving her brain damaged and paralysed at 11 months old.

I understand that a long-term problem (difficulty/challenge/obstruction) to this type of analysis has been interogating the system, with manufacturers having their own protocols and security.

And if anyone is bored and wants some light reading . . .

http://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advi ... nology.pdf

http://www.trl.co.uk/media/750140/trl-s ... low-aw.pdf

Google "Wheels, Skills and Thrills"

Those refer to fitted black box recorders...
does anyone know whether the car's built in computer maintains a permanent record of data - or does it only push it out in real time?

Alasdair

akirk wrote:Those refer to fitted black box recorders...
does anyone know whether the car's built in computer maintains a permanent record of data - or does it only push it out in real time?

Alasdair

Yes, maintained. That's what I was referring to about downloading data. The incompatibility /encryption /variability of the data has hindered its use during accident investigation.

Pyrolol wrote:

trashbat wrote:FWIW, much of that information is available from any car (at least, post-2004) via the OBD-II interface. It's really this that makes telematics possible; at least, anything more than a dumb accelerometer.

Yes, I have a small Bluetooth OBD2 adapter which you can pair with a phone or tablet and get similar information from. It's quite impressive really, considering it only cost £6.

and the Torque App? I use this on a variety of cars. You will need a manufacturer- / model-specific protocol overlay to access some menus. However, the some protocols, such as the engine emission-related sensors, are generic for most cars and can be used to reset them. I used mine to reset the O2 and Cat emission-related error codes when I had a vacuum leak in the inlet post-MAF.

well looking into it further - the manual says that the skoda stores some information (doesn't say which) for up to about 1000 hours / 10,000 kms of driving - but you can reset this from a menu option...

so I suspect that it is not storing for permanent use yet...

I have used the ODBC connector (and apps such as Torque) on the Z3 - but am just intrigued to see that manufacturers are now starting to build in automated access...

I can see this easily moving into black box territory

Alasdair

I think data logging is a double-edge sword. I would like it because it should give second hand car buyers more information in assessing the car they will be buying.

I see Garmin have brought out a satnav with a built in dashcam. It's also possible to use googlemaps and street view on some satnavs, so how long before it's possible to track (and possibly even control) cars via their satnavs and built-in radar guidance tech? Or even read the information remotely and catch drivers eg.speeding without even needing to see them do it?

My mind is a terrible place sometimes

Kimosabe wrote:I see Garmin have brought out a satnav with a built in dashcam. It's also possible to use googlemaps and street view on some satnavs, so how long before it's possible to track (and possibly even control) cars via their satnavs and built-in radar guidance tech? Or even read the information remotely and catch drivers eg.speeding without even needing to see them do it?

My mind is a terrible place sometimes

The problem about your postulations is that there would need to be common, approved, technical standards laid down by a governmental authority, or probably these days, EU authority.
Those standards "should" ensure no possibility of error and therein lies the problem and cost.

That said, all this stuff is, like much other in the digital arena, wet dreams for politicians.
However, remember, it tends to only control those who are prepared to be controlled but that's all politicians need, to control the majority.
Oh, Huxley and Orwell how prescient you both were.

I'm fairly heavily involved in future technology for cars for the day job. I've just bought a Caterham while I still can Another colleague continues to run a Porsche 944 in preference to anything more modern.

Meanwhile, what could possibly go wrong with ever growing amounts of software written by the lowest bidder....
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/15 ... re_glitch/