The Value Of Going To A Top Professional Coach

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby Silk » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:36 pm


StressedDave wrote:I believe that being our resident turd in the swimming pool is its own reward.


I'll take your word for that. :wink:
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:32 pm


Silk wrote:Some very sensible stuff ...

and:

I hope that clears things up a bit and goes some way to explaining the "friction" between me and other members of the forum.

Yes :D
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Postby TripleS » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:07 am


akirk wrote:....what I don't understand (and maybe others can explain) is the apparent contradiction in someone having sufficient interest in Advanced Driving to be a regular member of this forum - yet having no interest in improving their own driving!

Alasdair


"....no interest in improving their own driving!" I'd say the contradiction is more apparent than real.

Despite what some may take to be indications to the contrary, in my case it's simply a matter of how eager I am to make those improvements, in what respects, to what extent, and by what means; but please don't conclude that nothing is happening. 8)

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby akirk » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:28 am


akirk wrote:what I don't understand (and maybe others can explain) is the apparent contradiction in someone having sufficient interest in Advanced Driving to be a regular member of this forum - yet having no interest in improving their own driving!


Silk wrote:For me, safety, smoothness, economy and interaction with other road users take precedence over progress.


Silk wrote:This is why I believe professional coaching would probably be a waste of time and money in my case. That doesn't mean I believe it would be the case for everyone or even that I wouldn't learn from the experience, just that I don't believe it would be worth the expense.


Silk wrote:I hope that clears things up a bit and goes someway to explaining the "friction" between me and other members of the forum.


partially :)
so in effect it all comes down to cost
AD is not all about progress, and anyway, progress comes from smoothness / interaction / etc. (poss. not economy!)
You accept that professional coaching could teach you something / but yet have no interest in it...

which means simply that you feel there is no cost benefit, and perhaps that is because you haven't clicked that the things you are interested in come as much from AD and coaching as the things you feel are not as interesting?

Alasdair
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Postby TripleS » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:36 am


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:
Silk wrote:Some very sensible stuff ...

and:

I hope that clears things up a bit and goes some way to explaining the "friction" between me and other members of the forum.

Yes :D


Oh that's good; and I hope others will be reasonably satisfied with Steve's explanation posted at 18:34 yesterday.

I can relate to a lot of what he said, although having been retired for above 10 years, the nature and extent of my driving is now very different from his. My annual mileage is now relatively low, and the need for good progress is virtually non-existent. Having said that, I still enjoy a bit of a blast now and again. :lol:

FWIW, I've now spent 58 years seeking to be a good driver (whatever level that amounts to), so it has never been a case of passing the test and then just getting on with it, with no further thoughts about maintaining/improving the standard.

For the most part driving is still enjoyable to me, though I don't find there's much fun to be had in heavy traffic, but nor do I want to find the roads deserted. A lot of my enjoyment derives from having amiable and pleasant interactions with other road users, which works very well to the extent that I hardly ever feel uncomfortable with what's going on around me. I don't think that's such a bad situation to have. :wink:
Last edited by TripleS on Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Astraist » Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:19 am


Silk wrote: My interest is mainly because I'm a business driver and most of my driving is on main roads and in traffic - my reasons for wanting to be a better driver are probably a lot different to the majority of posters on here.


You would be surprised.

I put it in terms that most people plant themselves into other road users rather than the scenery. Point being that most challenges in driving (and indeed advanced driving) arise in traffic on main roads and city streets.

Most problems (and collisions) arise therefore not from some spectacular loss of control in an interesting B-road, but rather from not maintaining a safety margins from other cars and the like.

This being a more mondane aspect of driving, it is less attractive from a coaching aspect to the client, making them want to focus on the twisty parts and limit points and so forth rather than the straight parts.

As a coach, it is sometimes important to put more of an instructor's hat and guide the client a bit more clearly towards what matters more.

At the low-end of the driving populus, there is A LOT to work on in the fields of interacting with traffic. Even at the high-end I believe there are skills to be honed, but that's just me.
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Postby Silk » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:47 am


akirk wrote:partially :)
so in effect it all comes down to cost
AD is not all about progress, and anyway, progress comes from smoothness / interaction / etc. (poss. not economy!)
You accept that professional coaching could teach you something / but yet have no interest in it...


Read what I said again, with your comprehension glasses on this time.

I note that you seem dismissive of economy. The thing is, when you're covering 1000 miles a week, economy become much more of a priority than if you're only driving for occasional fun.

It's not as if I've had no coaching at all, just that it's all been amateur (but still very good).
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Postby akirk » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:16 pm


Silk wrote:
akirk wrote:partially :)
so in effect it all comes down to cost
AD is not all about progress, and anyway, progress comes from smoothness / interaction / etc. (poss. not economy!)
You accept that professional coaching could teach you something / but yet have no interest in it...


Read what I said again, with your comprehension glasses on this time.

I note that you seem dismissive of economy. The thing is, when you're covering 1000 miles a week, economy become much more of a priority than if you're only driving for occasional fun.

It's not as if I've had no coaching at all, just that it's all been amateur (but still very good).


you might wish to read mine better :D
I was simply commenting that progress does not come from economy - I am sure that you will agree that a drive for progress and one for economy might not be fully compatible...

I have no issue with folks choosing economy - more petrol for me :D

Alasdair
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Postby Horse » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:35 pm


akirk wrote:
Silk wrote:
akirk wrote:partially :)
so in effect it all comes down to cost
AD is not all about progress, and anyway, progress comes from smoothness / interaction / etc. (poss. not economy!)
You accept that professional coaching could teach you something / but yet have no interest in it...


Read what I said again, with your comprehension glasses on this time.

I note that you seem dismissive of economy. The thing is, when you're covering 1000 miles a week, economy become much more of a priority than if you're only driving for occasional fun.

It's not as if I've had no coaching at all, just that it's all been amateur (but still very good).


I was simply commenting that progress does not come from economy - I am sure that you will agree that a drive for progress and one for economy might not be fully compatible...


Although, as I posted recently:

Horse wrote:
chriskay wrote: Oh, eco driving may be something you're trained to deliver, but I've reached an age when I just want a bit of (safe) fun. :wink:


Not mutually-exclusive aims!

Transfer of fuel-efficient driving technique from the simulator to the road: steps towards a cost-benefit model for synthetic training
A.M. Parkes & N. Reed.

TRUCKSIM is a programme of research focused on simulation as a training delivery tool for skills development in qualified truck drivers.
The results revealed a picture of improvement in the simulator of several aspects of driving performance . . . an 11% increase in their fuel efficiency over the three visits to the simulator . . . drivers were handling the vehicle in a much more efficient manner. It would be easy to assume that drivers simply slowed down to achieve these improvements but the data show that drivers were actually around 8% faster overall.
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Postby akirk » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:54 pm


Horse wrote:Although, as I posted recently:

. . . an 11% increase in their fuel efficiency over the three visits to the simulator . . . drivers were handling the vehicle in a much more efficient manner. It would be easy to assume that drivers simply slowed down to achieve these improvements but the data show that drivers were actually around 8% faster overall.


but that is a slightly more complex argument - presumably smoothness leads to increased economy and increased progress - but that doesn't mean that a direct focus on progress leads to a proportional increase in economy, and while some aspects of AD such as smoothness may help both - there must logically come a time when you make a choice between ultimate progress / ultimate economy?

Alasdair
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Postby Silk » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:39 pm


akirk wrote:I was simply commenting that progress does not come from economy - I am sure that you will agree that a drive for progress and one for economy might not be fully compatible...


That depends of what you mean by progress. Good progress doesn't have to mean fast progress. The type of driving I prefer goes hand-in-hand with economy.
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Postby Horse » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:08 pm


akirk wrote: there must logically come a time when you make a choice between ultimate progress / ultimate economy?


I wasn't suggesting that one would always lead to the other.

However, if you use 'AD principles' of improved observation and planning, then you are likely to improve fuel economy.

However [2], if you are intending to travel as fast as possible, then there's probably a recognisable correlation between how hard you press on the loud / quiet pedals and increased fuel use.
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Postby akirk » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:42 pm


Horse wrote:
akirk wrote: there must logically come a time when you make a choice between ultimate progress / ultimate economy?


I wasn't suggesting that one would always lead to the other.

However, if you use 'AD principles' of improved observation and planning, then you are likely to improve fuel economy.

However [2], if you are intending to travel as fast as possible, then there's probably a recognisable correlation between how hard you press on the loud / quiet pedals and increased fuel use.


both fair points :)

Alasdair
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Postby TripleS » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:50 am


akirk wrote:
Horse wrote:Although, as I posted recently:

. . . an 11% increase in their fuel efficiency over the three visits to the simulator . . . drivers were handling the vehicle in a much more efficient manner. It would be easy to assume that drivers simply slowed down to achieve these improvements but the data show that drivers were actually around 8% faster overall.


but that is a slightly more complex argument - presumably smoothness leads to increased economy and increased progress - but that doesn't mean that a direct focus on progress leads to a proportional increase in economy, and while some aspects of AD such as smoothness may help both - there must logically come a time when you make a choice between ultimate progress / ultimate economy?

Alasdair


Yes indeed: you can't have the best of both, at the same time.

Having said that, I find I can get extremely good economy while still maintaining a normal rate of progress at up to the 60 mph NSL, i.e. not driving at unnaturally low speeds. It does, however, depend quite a lot on observation, anticipation, planning, minimal use of brakes, and being fairly restrained in terms of the amount of throttle used.
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Postby TripleS » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:54 am


Silk wrote:
akirk wrote:I was simply commenting that progress does not come from economy - I am sure that you will agree that a drive for progress and one for economy might not be fully compatible...


That depends of what you mean by progress. Good progress doesn't have to mean fast progress. The type of driving I prefer goes hand-in-hand with economy.


Yep, that works for me too.
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