Bends & limit points

[James]

I'd personally disagree with calling the nearest hazard the limit point as for me it is a term describing vision of road surface.

I agree that's the classical definition. You can think of it either way - that the limit point is not the nearest hazard, or that "straight on" is not the relevant limiting direction.

After all, it is often that the furthest unbroken view of road surface is behind me...

To corrupt Porker's advice - it's about not committing to a bit of road that you haven't had a good look not just at it, but at what might come onto it.

I often find it's a wonder that I ever get anywhere at all with any speed...

Well that's because the developed human brain is a fantastic piece of kit, just as are the other pieces that feed it information, such as the eyes.

We can learn to spot, process & priortise multiple hazards at great speed (certainly much faster than I can type about it here ) whilst using our well trained limbs to deftly change position & speed of the vehicle.

It's a beautiful display of biology, mechanics & art, intricately woven to prodcuce a masterpiece (well at least that's what it should be).

My dear colleaugue, you missed the most important one, CHEMISTRY with the road!!!

[vonhosen]

I'd personally disagree with calling the nearest hazard the limit point as for me it is a term describing vision of road surface.

I agree that's the classical definition. You can think of it either way - that the limit point is not the nearest hazard, or that "straight on" is not the relevant limiting direction.

After all, it is often that the furthest unbroken view of road surface is behind me...

To corrupt Porker's advice - it's about not committing to a bit of road that you haven't had a good look not just at it, but at what might come onto it.

I often find it's a wonder that I ever get anywhere at all with any speed...

Well that's because the developed human brain is a fantastic piece of kit, just as are the other pieces that feed it information, such as the eyes.

We can learn to spot, process & priortise multiple hazards at great speed (certainly much faster than I can type about it here ) whilst using our well trained limbs to deftly change position & speed of the vehicle.

It's a beautiful display of biology, mechanics & art, intricately woven to prodcuce a masterpiece (well at least that's what it should be).

My dear colleaugue, you missed the most important one, CHEMISTRY with the road!!!

I save chemistry for members of the opposite sex & a beautiful display of biology,mecahanics & art................no we won't go there.

[Lady Godiva]

Lady Godiva,

Excelent post. Not just what it is, but why and how it is we use it.

I understand why we do it, but at times on here it can get very technical, and sometimes easy to loose the less experienced, but eager to learn.
We have some of the best and most highly qualified drivers and Motorcyclists available to public forum posters, but like learning a new language it takes time to learn and understand a new wide and descriptive vocabulary that is apropriate to the new situation you are joining.

There's something about you gentlemen up there in Scotland, you all seem to have a certain charm

I agree it can sometimes get too technical, and although I love to learn from the more experienced on here, I also sometimes need to put it as simply as possible in my head.

So, I think to myself "get the speed right for the space available to stop in....space now getting less so slow down a bit.....speed continuing to get less so continue to slow down.....space to stop in is now staying the same, so I'll stay at this speed as I can stop in the space I can see to be clear, any slower and I'm not making best progress, any quicker and it's unsafe. Travel smoooooooothly around the corner. Space to stop in is now enlarging, so woooo hooooooo" (sorry about that last bit).

You are quite right about the highly qualified drivers and bikers on here. I love this site for Advanced info. I only wish the IAM site had a forum as good as this.

Regards
Sally

P.S. by the way Nigel, can you let us know how Stephen is getting on with it, and if any of this has helped.

[TripleS]

Braking on bends is not ideal and lateral vision as well as observation and planning can help to avoid this, but if we are making progess and the bend does sharpen (indicated by the slowing of the limit point) then there is little else you can do. Just ensure it is smooth and you take up the slack of the brakes before applying pressure to ensure the braking is as uninterruptive as possible.

I think you can sometimes help yourself by straightening your line briefly while you do a bit of braking, and then tighten the line again after coming off the brakes. This may be most useful on slippery surfaces, but it is not something I've often needed to resort to. No extensive experience of that one!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Gentlemen.

Excuse me.......

Dear Sally,

Oh dear yes, most unfortunate.

Well quite obviously what Nigel meant (in the nicest possible way) was simply that women should know their place. Think in terms of kitchens, hot stoves for slaving over, hoovers, dusters, ironing boards - that sort of thing, I'm sure you get the idea.

I trust this will have been of some help, but please don't hesitate to let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Luv,
Dave.

[7db]

Braking on bends is not ideal...

What about trail braking into bends?

[TripleS]

Braking on bends is not ideal...

What about trail braking into bends?

Can I offer an answer to that?

It's like many other things. The purist will probably say you shouldn't do it, but so long as you've got plenty of spare grip capacity available it'll do no harm. In any case, what do you do when making a sharp turn while descending a steep hill?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Lady Godiva]

Gentlemen.

Excuse me.......

Dear Sally,

Oh dear yes, most unfortunate.

Well quite obviously what Nigel meant (in the nicest possible way) was simply that women should know their place. Think in terms of kitchens, hot stoves for slaving over, hoovers, dusters, ironing boards - that sort of thing, I'm sure you get the idea.

I trust this will have been of some help, but please don't hesitate to let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Luv,
Dave.

Dear Dave - you know I shouldn't be let loose in the kitchen, after the total hash I made of the scones.

I do know my place. The big lump I am unfortunately shackled to has told me that women have small feet so that they can get nearer the sink. He also said our blouses are white so that they match kitchen utensils.

Sometimes I don't know how I can possibly get through the day without splitting my sides.

Then I get in my sports car (a girls one, but still a sports car) and wooo hoooooooooooooo

Regards
Sally

[crr003]

..... I only wish the IAM site had a forum as good as this.

"worms..can of ..open" arrange into a well known phrase or saying.....

[vonhosen]

Braking on bends is not ideal...

What about trail braking into bends?

Can I offer an answer to that?

It's like many other things. The purist will probably say you shouldn't do it, but so long as you've got plenty of spare grip capacity available it'll do no harm. In any case, what do you do when making a sharp turn while descending a steep hill?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Nothing wrong with braking in a curved path in circumstances that require it. What you want to avoid is lots of both at the same time (ie lots of steering lock & lots of braking at the same time)

[crr003]

....2) I try and keep it simple for me, in that if I am 175 feet away from the limit point, I need to be at a speed such that i can stop in 175 feet, so I would be at 50mph. .......

Wow - how's the Triumph Herald holding up?

[Lady Godiva]

Braking on bends is not ideal and laterel vision as well as observation and planning can halp to avoid this, but if we are making progess and the bend does sharpen (indicated by the slowing of the limit point) then there is little else you can do. Just ensure it is smooth and you take up the slack of the brakes before applying pressure to ensure the braking is as uninterruptive as possible.

Dear PD - I appreciate that making progress for you may be different to the rest us . Putting that aside for the moment, do you think that if you are travelling at the 'correct' speed for the corner, and just as importantly in the correct gear, then a little acceleration sense may be more applicable than braking. It may give a fraction more smooth deceleration, without destabilising the vehicle.

Always assuming that there are no other forces acting on the vehicle of course, such as a downhill bend, but in that case you would possibly be already gently on the brakes, or your speed would be relevant to the gradient.

Just a thought.

Regards
Sally

[crr003]

Well quite obviously what Nigel meant (in the nicest possible way) was simply that women should know their place. Think in terms of kitchens, hot stoves for slaving over, hoovers, dusters, ironing boards - that sort of thing, I'm sure you get the idea.

You missed bedroom.......

[7db]

What you want to avoid is lots of both at the same time (ie lots of steering lock & lots of braking at the same time)

Depending on what effect you are trying to produce...

[crr003]

Braking on bends is not ideal...

What about trail braking into bends?

I think it's important to reinforce the concept to IAM/RoADA students that secondary braking in bends is OK. Ideally one should have assessed the bend and got the speed correct, but in the event of a cock-up, it's far better to slow the vehicle rather than sit there saying "I MUST not secondary brake".

I don't see trail braking sitting well with IAM/RoADA courses, although it's another tool in the toolbox (a good phrase).