Bends & limit points

[7db]

I don't see trail braking sitting well with IAM/RoADA courses, although it's another tool in the toolbox (a good phrase).

And that's another good thing to drill into IAM/RoADA students is that IAM/RoADA courses aren't the be-all and end-all.

Not that I've done either.

[crr003]

And that's another good thing to drill into IAM/RoADA students is that IAM/RoADA courses aren't the be-all and end-all.

Not that I've done either.

True. But the OP was talking about a new IAM associate. I doubt trail braking should be top of his list of skills to absorb, although knowing it exists is good.

But stick with this forum and he'll even pick up advice on J turns from Von!

[7db]

Bringing up the OP on page 3? Let's hope he's tenacious. Certainly not locquacious..

[Gareth]

Nothing wrong with braking in a curved path in circumstances that require it. What you want to avoid is lots of both at the same time (ie lots of steering lock & lots of braking at the same time)

Completely agree.

One point drivers need to be aware of is that the rate of increase of grip at the front when braking in a corner is much less than the rate of decrease of grip at the back, and moreover that the rate of change is not linear.

This is why excessive (for the conditions) amounts of braking in a corner lead to the back end stepping out rapidly and alarmingly.

[crr003]

Bringing up the OP on page 3? Let's hope he's tenacious. Certainly not locquacious..

Let's hope he's got a dictionary!

[jont]

This is why excessive (for the conditions) amounts of braking in a corner lead to the back end stepping out rapidly and alarmingly.

Or if you've got a Pug 205 (or 309) GTi, simply lifting off the throttle mid-corner can be enough to unsettle the back end. The problem if you enter a corner too fast - keep the power on and go through the hedge forwards, or lift off and go through it backwards....

[James]

Braking on bends is not ideal and laterel vision as well as observation and planning can halp to avoid this, but if we are making progess and the bend does sharpen (indicated by the slowing of the limit point) then there is little else you can do. Just ensure it is smooth and you take up the slack of the brakes before applying pressure to ensure the braking is as uninterruptive as possible.

Dear PD - I appreciate that making progress for you may be different to the rest us . Putting that aside for the moment, do you think that if you are travelling at the 'correct' speed for the corner, and just as importantly in the correct gear, then a little acceleration sense may be more applicable than braking. It may give a fraction more smooth deceleration, without destabilising the vehicle.

Always assuming that there are no other forces acting on the vehicle of course, such as a downhill bend, but in that case you would possibly be already gently on the brakes, or your speed would be relevant to the gradient.

Just a thought.

Regards
Sally

Acc Sense will guide you nice and smooothly into the bend. Ensure you select the correct gear prior to it if using Acc Sense. By using Acc Sense you will be coming off the gas early to avoid braking for the corner. Still advanced, but, not the maximum progress you COULD make. Late braking, gear, acceleration through the bend will be marginally quicker. On a route of 100 bends (e.g. 20 mile journey) the repeated use of this technique of late braking and efficient entry speed will save minutes. People die in seconds and minutes.

[Nigel]

Many thanks for the replies chaps ( & chapess).

I've sent Stephen a link,

[James]

Braking on bends is not ideal and laterel vision as well as observation and planning can halp to avoid this, but if we are making progess and the bend does sharpen (indicated by the slowing of the limit point) then there is little else you can do. Just ensure it is smooth and you take up the slack of the brakes before applying pressure to ensure the braking is as uninterruptive as possible.

Dear PD - I appreciate that making progress for you may be different to the rest us . Putting that aside for the moment, do you think that if you are travelling at the 'correct' speed for the corner, and just as importantly in the correct gear, then a little acceleration sense may be more applicable than braking. It may give a fraction more smooth deceleration, without destabilising the vehicle.

Always assuming that there are no other forces acting on the vehicle of course, such as a downhill bend, but in that case you would possibly be already gently on the brakes, or your speed would be relevant to the gradient.

Just a thought.

Regards
Sally

Acc sense is simply control of the throttle to match your speed with the hazard in front of you, no more no less. Good Acc sense results in the "lack" of need for the brakes. I dont get the link with this and limit points, unless you are driving the Queen when she has had a few Martini's.

[Gareth]

do you think that if you are travelling at the 'correct' speed for the corner, and just as importantly in the correct gear, then a little acceleration sense may be more applicable than braking.

Acc sense is simply control of the throttle to match your speed with the hazard in front of you, no more no less. Good Acc sense results in the "lack" of need for the brakes. I dont get the link with this and limit points

I think Sally is referring to what happens in stage 2 of the corner, when addressing the point I raised about how to manage a tightening radius.

I feel that if the driver needs to slow down mid-corner then (for the advanced rather than expert driver) the time for finesse has gone because the driver got it wrong at stage 1. If slowing is required, better to get it sorted as soon as possible rather than potentially leaving it too late and making a bad situation worse.

Far, far better is to have arrived at the corner using the limit point as per stage 1, but to have allowed extra margin, (i.e. having more space than you need to stop), as you move into and through stage 2, (and maintaining that extra margin until the limit point is clearly disappearing into the distance).

[PeteG]

I see what she's saying... that you could try using earlier acc. sense so you don't have to brake into the corner. But as you say, there's time to be saved.

[stephenperry]

hello everyone, and thanks for all your input, i've printed it all out so i can read over it thoroughly and hopefully apply properly

i'm waiting for contact from my local group for my first observed drive and i'm going to have to go "cold turkey" to try and give up heel & toe gearchanges in the meantime

[crr003]

.....I feel that if the driver needs to slow down mid-corner then (for the advanced rather than expert driver) the time for finesse has gone because the driver got it wrong at stage 1. If slowing is required, better to get it sorted as soon as possible rather than potentially leaving it too late and making a bad situation worse.......

Good. As I thought I said this on the previous page.

[vonhosen]

But stick with this forum and he'll even pick up advice on J turns from Von!

And I'll say it now just as a certain Harry Enfield character would........"Oi nooooo"

[Gareth]

.....I feel that if the driver needs to slow down mid-corner then (for the advanced rather than expert driver) the time for finesse has gone because the driver got it wrong at stage 1. If slowing is required, better to get it sorted as soon as possible rather than potentially leaving it too late and making a bad situation worse.......

Good. As I thought I said this on the previous page.

Sorry but I thought you were only discussing what happens when a driver has cocked up the entry speed to a corner.

I was talking about driving at the limit of visibility and what might happen if, mid-corner, the driver speeds up slightly before the end of the bend is clearly in sight, and then is caught out by the bend tightening again.

I do agree though that they are similar situations, and with the same remedy.