Roundabout signalling - turning right - close entry exits

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby Silk » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:10 pm


TripleS wrote:
chriskay wrote:As I remember it, approaching/on roundabouts, no signal sends the message that you are continuing round, a left signal is used when preparing to exit, and when that signal is given depends on the road layout. Oh, and of course, if yours is the only vehicle on the roundabout, no signal at all. It seems to me that there's altogether too much signalling used; as akirk said, positioning often gives all the information necessary.


I can't remember who said it, but I have heard the view that if a car is really well driven almost all signals can be dispensed with. The suggestion was that practically all the necessary information as to intentions can be conveyed by positioning and the speed/speed profiles used.


It should've been me who said it, because I agree with it. In the case described in this thread, I wouldn't have signalled at all.
Silk
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:03 pm

Postby triquet » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:37 pm


I've just had ten days in France, and can report on some spectacularly perverse signalling on roundabouts there ... :mrgreen:
Jim
Offshore Engineer and Master of Music
triquet
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:51 pm

Postby Ancient » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:29 pm


I agree with Alisdair and Nick (and just about everyone else who has posted :) ) re. positioning. I would also definitely not be signaling at all for at least the last two green dots, more likely the last four: You are not moving any further to the right, so there is no reason to do so. As you are finding, it is a signal that confuses others.
Ancient
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:22 pm

Postby Horse » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:12 pm


There are plenty of answers and suggestions for what you might do differently.

What I'm going to suggest is that you think differently :) Specifically, put yourself in the seats of the other drivers - what do they see which encourages / reassures them that it's safe to pull out?

The reminder 'TUG' covers information: Take Use Give, but there's a rider on the end, what I heard described as the 'send- receive' error. Or, in a cartoon with one driver yelling at another: "Why didn't you signal?" with the reply "There wasn't a signal for what I was going to do!"

So your 'other drivers' are seeing something or not seeing something else. Those are the things you need to change.

When driving, you look at a situation, evaluate it, plan what to do, then put the plan into place. Incorporate and extra stage: the 'loop'. So identify, evaluate, plan, consider others' reactions to your plan, re-evaluate, implement.
Anything posted by 'Horse' may be (C) Malcolm Palmer. Please ask for permission before considering any copying or re-use outside of forum posting.
User avatar
Horse
 
Posts: 2811
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:40 pm
Location: Darkest Berkshoire

Postby TerryTibbs » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:17 pm


killingtime wrote:I've tried left signalling earlier at around the second to last green dot, and then gradually drifting over to the left lane so by the second amber dot my car is almost completely in the left lane. The reason I question this manoeuvre is because I've had a few drivers at 'A' shake their head at me while I was going past. One bus driver became quite animated and started waving his hands up and down (I think he was trying to communicate something about lane discipline). That's the reason for this post. Something not quite right.

As many here have now pointed out, sticking rigidly to the highway code (as indicated by the dots) isn't the best option for this particular roundabout and exit. It will lead to more potential collisions than signalling earlier.

Thanks for all your help.


I can see why they'd get a bit miffed there as signalling at that point looks very much like you're going to take the exit before entry point A. As others have said, I'd be inclined to indicate later rather than earlier in this situation - as someone else has nodded towards in this thread, indicating late is going to cause people to hold back from entering the roundabout and there can be no collision there, whereas indicating too early might be giving them the green light to enter the roundabout in their view.

I'd also be inclined to move over to the left lane a little earlier as well, technically there shouldn't be anyone on your left but we all know too well that some people like to join you on your left if they're coming off at the next exit, so a quick mirror/shoulder check just to be sure before you move over.
TerryTibbs
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:31 pm

Postby Pontoneer » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:18 pm


akirk wrote:signalling is meant to help communicate to other road users what your intentions might be... it is not meant to confuse... rigidly following HC examples can confuse...

for example:
you are driving along a road and there is a parked car ahead and a turning to the right:
- you signal right - are you going past the car / turning right?
- you move out into the right of your lane, you aren't turning right, you are going past the car - much clearer

positional driving can be much clearer than indicators it is one of those forgotten things in driving - everyone else is taking clues from your car's position and making judgements and reacting accordingly, yet the vast majority of drivers do not think to use the position of their car to show their intentions - thus there is so often a misunderstanding...

as above - move over without signalling - much clearer for all concerned - then signal once across and past the prior exit...

Alasdair


This is an excellent example of why I still like the 'old' six-feature system where you might approach the parked car , intending to turn right at the junction , with following traffic present . So , you have adopted a course to pass the car and set yourself up for the turn , signalled right for the benefit of following traffic , brought your speed down for the turn , selected the appropriate gear , then at feature four there is provision to again consider a signal if none was given earlier , or to emphasise a signal already given : at this point I quite often give a hand signal to emphasise the signal already given , before considering use of horn ( pedestrians may not be aware of you ) before acceleration as appropriate . It still works .
Pontoneer
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:03 pm

Postby akirk » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:07 am


Pontoneer wrote:This is an excellent example of why I still like the 'old' six-feature system where you might approach the parked car , intending to turn right at the junction , with following traffic present . So , you have adopted a course to pass the car and set yourself up for the turn , signalled right for the benefit of following traffic , brought your speed down for the turn , selected the appropriate gear , then at feature four there is provision to again consider a signal if none was given earlier , or to emphasise a signal already given : at this point I quite often give a hand signal to emphasise the signal already given , before considering use of horn ( pedestrians may not be aware of you ) before acceleration as appropriate . It still works .


That is good - I like it. A lot of drivers see signalling as a one point in time event - rather than continually assessing whether signalling is needed / should start / should continue / should finish - and what type of signalling... ultimately it is simply communication, not a mindless step...

Alasdair
akirk
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:07 am
Location: Cotswolds

Postby revian » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:01 pm


chriskay wrote:As I remember it, approaching/on roundabouts, no signal sends the message that you are continuing round, a left signal is used when preparing to exit, and when that signal is given depends on the road layout. Oh, and of course, if yours is the only vehicle on the roundabout, no signal at all. It seems to me that there's altogether too much signalling used; as akirk said, positioning often gives all the information necessary.


I'd agree. Sometimes the meaning of the signalling is countered by the positioning of the car.... The positioning is usually a clearer signal... but, here's the rub... not always!

Locally the Devon Doorway roundabout on the A540 into Heswall has an immediate turning off two of the exits where a signal held on a moment too long for the roundabout exit can lead a car to pull out in front of you from junction. It also has a filling station entry and separate exit on it...it's a recipe for disaster. Wits not signals are needed...Chris will know it well
Wirral
revian
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:37 pm

Postby Mash » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:32 pm


I have a similar problem to the OP on my route which I have to do twice a day as per the map here:

Image

My understanding is that I can go in the RH lane around the roundabout and then indicate left at Point B then move across to the left hand lane of the exit road. This means that I am in the left hand lane of the carriageway when I get to the side turning, all happy following the red dots.

The problem as you will no doubt have guessed is that traffic exiting from Point C, that is to say turning left and going in the same direction as me, always assume I will stay in the right hand carriageway and pull out regardless of where I am on the roundabout blocking my movement across to the left lane. My understanding is that they are in the wrong as they are not giving way to traffic on the roundabout but many people I speak to disagree with me.

If I do stay on the right and let them pull out and I follow the green dots, more often than not I end up having to try to pull in behind them but with high volumes of traffic this is not easy especially as I will be braking shortly to turn left. In addition there is a pedestrian crossing before my side road turning just after Point D which makes this manoeuvre even harder if someone stops the traffic.

The other alternative is to accelerate fast and cut in front of every one but this is dangerous and I have to brake hard at the side road. I should point out that I have a 1997 Punto 1.2 as a winter hack so everyone on the road can out-accelerate and out-brake me…..

I am at the end of my tether with this now. The worst case scenario is if I want to go into the garage at Point E as this is directly off the exit so you have to move across very early. Bear in mind also that people coming on to the roundabout from the west also seem reluctant to wait!

There is an alternative – I can go to the next roundabout and approach this one from the west so that I am nice and safe on the left all the way but on principle this annoys me and it also adds more time to my journey especially in the evening rush hour.

Any advice??!!
Last edited by Mash on Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mash
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:58 am

Postby Gareth » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:42 pm


Very nice diagram!

Mash wrote:My understanding is that I can go in the RH lane around the roundabout and then indicate left at Point B then move across to the left hand lane of the exit road.

Point B is the earliest at which you can indicate left - the reason is that you are indicating to drivers waiting to join the roundabout from Point A, specifically not the drivers waiting at Point C.

However you can (and should) start to move across somewhat earlier. How much earlier is determined by the need to leave space for vehicles taking the exit before your chosen exit. If you follow this more assertive line, you should have fewer problems caused by impatient drivers waiting to join from Point C.

If you are struggling to visualise the line, think of it in terms of slicing across the front of any vehicles having the temerity to cross the give-way line, starting from just before the highlight for Marfleet Avenue ;-) That is, you want to be fully established in the outer lane just after the point at which vehicles join from Marfleet Avenue.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...
Gareth
 
Posts: 3604
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:58 pm
Location: Berkshire




Postby Mash » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:29 pm


Thanks for that. It does actually work better by getting into the left hand lane and exit early as it were.

As people have said before, position of the vehicle speaks more volumes than a signal.

New to the forum but finding it very interesting. Will have to get around to my IAM test soon, been meaning to for ages!
Mash
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:58 am

Previous

Return to Advanced Driving Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests