Roundabout signalling - turning right - close entry exits

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby killingtime » Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:11 pm


Hello,

New to the forum and would like your advice on roundabout signalling.

Roundabout in question is dual lane, and has multiple dual carriage ways entering and exiting. I'm turning right. There are multiple right hand entry and exit lanes spaced close together.

The highway code instructs to signal right while approaching the roundabout then left *after* you've passed the penultimate exit and transition into lane 1 (left) before exiting the roundabout. This is my understanding:

Image

The problem is, there's hardly any space between the right hand roundabout exits (only one RH exit in the above picture, but imagine two), and this leaves almost no time to signal left, so the benefit of the signal is lost to anyone on or wanting to enter the roundabout. To an onlooker, it seems like you're swerving from the inside lane across the outside lane to exit at the last possible moment.

Can't signal before the penultimate exit as people on that exit waiting to enter the roundabout think I'm coming off at their exit. They pre-empt the manoeuvre (incorrectly) and pull out, causing a near collision.

There's also the issue of transitioning from the inside lane to the outside lane to come off (remember I'm approaching the roundabout to turn right) in heavy *rush hour* traffic. If you leave the transition to the penultimate exit then there's no free lane space. Signal earlier to get a space in the outside lane and you've got the above problem where people think you're coming off at an earlier exit and pull out....

Nothing on the highway code for this situation. Obviously the best option is one that's least likely to result in a collision, so leaving the left signal to the last minute seems the best of all options.

Any better ideas?

Thanks.
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Postby akirk » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:45 pm


killingtime wrote:There's also the issue of transitioning from the inside lane to the outside lane to come off (remember I'm approaching the roundabout to turn right) in heavy *rush hour* traffic. If you leave the transition to the penultimate exit then there's no free lane space. Signal earlier to get a space in the outside lane and you've got the above problem where people think you're coming off at an earlier exit and pull out....


welcome to the forum :)

if this is a specific roundabout - posting a link to Google maps can help...

I am slightly confused...
- you say that if you leave the move from inside lane to outside lane until after the penultimate exit (straight ahead here) then there is no room
- you say that if you signal earlier to get a space in the outside lane people pull out...

are those not contradictory?
if there is no space to move from the inside lane to the outside lane there must be traffic already in the outside lane - so no room for anyone to pull out anyway...
if there is room to pull out - there is room to move over...

I would suggest that you need to think of how you project yourself to others - so position the car to put them off - as Stressed Dave suggests, leaving them confused is better than their not being confused (but being wrong!)

We don't know how big the roundabout is and that makes a difference - but I might look for my route to be fairly straight / squared off across the top, so that my positioning showed people that I wasn't coming off earlier, but as soon as that was passed, I would be going straight towards the exit - however other traffic patterns would affect this, so more info on that would be useful

you mention two right exits - so seeing a google map link would help

what confuses me slightly is your suggestion that you need to signal to get into the outside lane or else there is traffic there - where has that come from?
- ahead of you, stay behind
- behind you, stay ahead
- onto the roundabout as you go round - you have right of way, position yourself to stop them - if necessary come into the outside lane earlier (without indicating) and go round in that lane...

but a link would be great :)

Alasdair
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:54 pm


All he's saying is that the exits are close together so no room (or time) to change lanes between the two exits. I guess the solution is to change lanes earlier but do it without signals because signalling left may persuade people in the first of the two exits that you're leaving the r/a there.

PS if your exit is a d/c then just exit directly into lane 2.
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Postby martine » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:16 pm


Hello and welcome!

Does sound tricky and there may well not be a definitive answer.

A google maps link would be helpful.

PS. If you get a chance, perhaps you could tell us a little about yourself and your experience, what you drive etc in the 'Introductions' thread?
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Postby killingtime » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:41 pm


Hello,

Thank you for your replies.

I passed my advanced (car) test in April 1994, but am not a member of the club that helped train me any more because my work takes me all over the UK, and it's difficult to say I'm going to be in any one place at a given time. Do they still use the little blue police drivers manual to train people (Roadcraft 1977)?

I drive a Golf TDi with 155k on the clock. All my miles. Still on the original clutch, turbo and exhaust.

Anyway, back to the roundabout.

Image

You might wonder from looking at the aerial shot above what all the fuss is about. The lanes look evenly spaced but I've had a few close encounters over the last 12 months. Green dots show right signal. Amber and red dots left signal. Amber dots show transition between lanes.

The problem I've found with this roundabout is the dual lane feeding it at 'A' and 'A's proximity to the exit (red dots). It looks like there's plenty of time to signal left (amber) and transition lanes before exiting, but even at 20 mph there's only enough time for 2 flashes of the indicator before you're on top of any traffic pulling out of 'A'. I should also point out it's a fast roundabout. 30 mph limit and you can bet that people come out of junctions in a hail of rubber and fuel at rush hour. It's common to see people riding the clutch at 'A' waiting to pull out.

I've had numerous people in the left lane at 'A' (trying to enter the roundabout) who see me on the inside lane of the roundabout (at the 1st amber dot) but fail to see the indicator (as it's only just been activated) and they pull out as I'm changing lanes (with my indicator on). To avoid this situation, I sometimes leave the lane transition a bit later (so my indicator is on for a bit longer). Less chance of any collision this way but to an onlooker at 'A' it seems like I'm swerving across both lanes to the exit.

The dots showing indication and lane change are correct - right?

P.S. I have checked that my indicators are working.

Alasdair
what confuses me slightly is your suggestion that you need to signal to get into the outside lane or else there is traffic there - where has that come from?
- ahead of you, stay behind
- behind you, stay ahead
- onto the roundabout as you go round - you have right of way, position yourself to stop them - if necessary come into the outside lane earlier (without indicating) and go round in that lane...


Traffic comes from junction 'A' who (presumably) think the left lane of the roundabout in front of them is clear as I'm in the right lane. They don't know I'm about to transition because they don't see my indicator in time.

Come to think of it, I could try slowing down even further at the last green dot to give people more time to see the indicator. Perhaps that's the answer.

Thanks,
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Postby akirk » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:50 pm


I think you are moving over too late - I can understand why someone coming out at A might go, if they are aiming to be in the outside lane - it is not until you are on top of them that you show which lane you will be in...

positional information can be stronger than signals - so many people signal badly that it is not always as strong a message as you would hope... If a car is sitting at A they are seeing two messages:
- indicator says you are about to come off left
- position of your car says you are not
therefore it is likely that you are not and the indicator is wrong - so they go...
you need to be in the outside lane by the first orange dot.. so that the position of your car gives a much clearer message as to where you are going - the indicator confirms it...

30mph limit is not a fast roundabout and if you are going around slowly then that is another reason why someone feels they have time to come out in front of you...

try it faster and an earlier move to the outside lane - more definite progress may help

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Postby fungus » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:58 pm


This roundabout can cause problems when turning right from the West bound B3074 onto the NE bound A349. You need to move into the middle lane just right of the hatched area as you're passing the S bound A349 dual carriageway, in other words, as soon as you're passing the first exit, otherwise you'll have a vehicle alongside you just at the point where you need to change lanes.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.75041 ... a=!3m1!1e3
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Postby RobC » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:12 pm


When 2 right exits are close together, timing of signals can be critical and whether you signal left to exit 2nd right would depend on the traffic situation, ie whether the left signal would benefit or confuse other road users.
In general If there are road users that could be mislead by the timing of your signal or where no other road user would benefit than I agree with Stresseddave don't signal.
In some instances where exits are close together, It is possible that a slightly early left signal early may benefit other road users however you would have to be certain that this would not mislead other road users.
Last edited by RobC on Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pyrolol » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:22 pm


StressedDave wrote:1. Don't turn with anyone else on a roundabout - gives you more space to play with
2. Don't indicate - you actually want to confuse everybody so that they stay clear

How about a little drift - that'll really keep people away!

More seriously, I do quite like pulling out faster than people waiting alongside me.
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Postby fengpo » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:34 pm


I would be looking to move over around the first amber dot. That was my first thought looking at the image, the position of the car, would demonstrate you're going to take the exit you want.

Another point as other have said regarding the speed etc around the roundabout. Your entry speed might be too slow, try watching the traffic flow, seeing and selecting your gap. Then telling yourself that's your gap, works for me. I think the method I like is a police method. The class 1 boys will be able to explain better, I practiced by myself the technique after watching Chris Gilbert's dvd. Incredibly satisfying getting it right, feels far more progressive. Chris did roundabout approaches with me yesterday for a short while, 10 times maybe (same roundabout). The exit was a tricky one I had to move over early.

I'm sure you'll find the best way for you, have fun with it :)
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:43 pm


I think I'd be straddling the lane line by the last green dot, fully in the left lane by the second amber one, thus completely blocking the A-ers from emerging. Signal would go on somewhere between first and second amber dots. The lane transition would be done with just eyeball and chassis language. If local custom means there are followers behind in the left lane as you transition with the intention of using the same exit as you, then you need to transition even earlier, or just use the left lane all the way round, as Chris said. You're the one with the experience and local knowledge, don't be afraid to bend so-called "rules" if it helps you to stay safe.
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Postby RobC » Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:34 am


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote: don't be afraid to bend so-called "rules" if it helps you to stay safe.


Agree with Nick. The highway code, roadcraft and driving books don't have all the answers as they cant cover all eventualities as traffic scenarios are never identical twice.

Positioning and whether to use an early, late or no signal at all are all affected by the traffic situation. I would also be conscious of glancing into my left blind spot before considering a signal and moving across to exit on the left.
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Postby killingtime » Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:51 pm


Again, thanks for your replies, which confirm one of the theories I've been trying.

Alasdair
you need to be in the outside lane by the first orange dot.. so that the position of your car gives a much clearer message as to where you are going


Ideally yes (I'd do that if I could), but if signalling between lanes was used, that signal could be interpreted as wanting to exit the roundabout at an earlier exit and would cause confusion. Could be done without signalling between lanes. Just pull out at the 4th to last green dot to get into the outside lane (if it was empty) and then start indicating left at the first amber dot. That would work quite well.

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner:
I think I'd be straddling the lane line by the last green dot, fully in the left lane by the second amber one, thus completely blocking the A-ers from emerging. Signal would go on somewhere between first and second amber dots.


I've tried left signalling earlier at around the second to last green dot, and then gradually drifting over to the left lane so by the second amber dot my car is almost completely in the left lane. The reason I question this manoeuvre is because I've had a few drivers at 'A' shake their head at me while I was going past. One bus driver became quite animated and started waving his hands up and down (I think he was trying to communicate something about lane discipline). That's the reason for this post. Something not quite right.

As many here have now pointed out, sticking rigidly to the highway code (as indicated by the dots) isn't the best option for this particular roundabout and exit. It will lead to more potential collisions than signalling earlier.

Thanks for all your help.
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Postby akirk » Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:32 pm


signalling is meant to help communicate to other road users what your intentions might be... it is not meant to confuse... rigidly following HC examples can confuse...

for example:
you are driving along a road and there is a parked car ahead and a turning to the right:
- you signal right - are you going past the car / turning right?
- you move out into the right of your lane, you aren't turning right, you are going past the car - much clearer

positional driving can be much clearer than indicators it is one of those forgotten things in driving - everyone else is taking clues from your car's position and making judgements and reacting accordingly, yet the vast majority of drivers do not think to use the position of their car to show their intentions - thus there is so often a misunderstanding...

as above - move over without signalling - much clearer for all concerned - then signal once across and past the prior exit...

Alasdair
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Postby TripleS » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:35 pm


chriskay wrote:As I remember it, approaching/on roundabouts, no signal sends the message that you are continuing round, a left signal is used when preparing to exit, and when that signal is given depends on the road layout. Oh, and of course, if yours is the only vehicle on the roundabout, no signal at all. It seems to me that there's altogether too much signalling used; as akirk said, positioning often gives all the information necessary.


I can't remember who said it, but I have heard the view that if a car is really well driven almost all signals can be dispensed with. The suggestion was that practically all the necessary information as to intentions can be conveyed by positioning and the speed/speed profiles used.
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