Giving too much room !

[coconut]

Hi all,
I've now had about 8 observed drives from various kind people at my
RoADA group (East Renfrewshire). It's very interesting to see peoples
different ways.
On my last drive I was with a trainee observer and a senior observer
in the back seat keeping an eye on us both. After this drive we had a
debrief and the senior observer picked up on my positioning at a particular
point during the run.

I was on a 30 mph straight single carriageway road, with no-one behind.
There was a cyclist opposing me at about 150 metres with a car closing in
from behind them. I carried out a system, dropped slightly below the limit
and took up a nearside position. The opposing car slowed down and
remained behind the cyclist. We passed safely and I carried on.

He pointed out that by positioning to the nearside I could be inviting the
oncoming car to overtake the cyclist by giving him more room. My reason
was he may try to squeeze past anyway and not give the bike any room
at all. He advised that I should have kept a central position therefore
discouraging the car from overtaking.

I will keep a central position in future, but I remember reading somewhere
"Never rely on others to bring safety into the equation...ever !"

I welcome any thoughts.

Andy.

[martine]

Tricky one. I think like a lot of driving...it's a judgement call and depends so much on the circumstances. I would agree you can invite someone to do something silly but if your convinced they will try and squeeze past (or are already) then it's only sensible to give them as much room as possible.

If you remember back to when you were learning (L-test that is) you probably drove 'timidly' and many people take this as an invitation to pull out in front of you, overtake when it's not safe, tailgate etc. The situation you describe is a bit like that and by 'dominating' the road (not aggresively) you can encourage others to make the right choice!

[MGF]

A similar thing happened to me today on an observed run although it was a line of parked cars rather than a cyclist.

I was told not to move over to the left as that would be inviting the other driver to overtake (and why not I thought?)

My observer's point is that I don't know the competance of the oncoming driver and should avoid getting too close unless I have to.

If the other driver does decide to overtake then at least I have room to move over to the left.

If I have already ceded any spare part of my side of the road to him I have nowhere to go if he misjudges his overtake.

I see his point. This advanced driving business is more complicated than I thought.

[PeteG]

That is the best I've heard it put, MGF. That if you do need to, you've still got the room to move - if you're already there, the oncoming driver aims for that gap and misses, then you're up t'creek without paddle.

[7db]

There's also a psychological game going on. Move over slightly and you might tempt the other driver to think there's room. Move the other way and block his progress - driving down the middle of your shared space, and you will persuade him to wait for you. A little wave is a nice touch if you do this...

As ever - always be prepared to abandon speed and position for safely.

[Lynne]

There's also a psychological game going on. Move over slightly and you might tempt the other driver to think there's room. Move the other way and block his progress - driving down the middle of your shared space, and you will persuade him to wait for you. A little wave is a nice touch if you do this...

Yep this works when your on your horse too and people drive at you with not much intention of slowing down and you have a 10' deep ditch at the side of the road! (Actually it was an impatient tractor driver with humungous trailer on the back earlier tonight) It's actually quite surprising how I use Roadcraft as a rider too! He either flattened my horse and me or had to wait!

[James]

Hi all,
I've now had about 8 observed drives from various kind people at my
RoADA group (East Renfrewshire). It's very interesting to see peoples
different ways.
On my last drive I was with a trainee observer and a senior observer
in the back seat keeping an eye on us both. After this drive we had a
debrief and the senior observer picked up on my positioning at a particular
point during the run.

I was on a 30 mph straight single carriageway road, with no-one behind.
There was a cyclist opposing me at about 150 metres with a car closing in
from behind them. I carried out a system, dropped slightly below the limit
and took up a nearside position. The opposing car slowed down and
remained behind the cyclist. We passed safely and I carried on.

He pointed out that by positioning to the nearside I could be inviting the
oncoming car to overtake the cyclist by giving him more room. My reason
was he may try to squeeze past anyway and not give the bike any room
at all. He advised that I should have kept a central position therefore
discouraging the car from overtaking.

I will keep a central position in future, but I remember reading somewhere
"Never rely on others to bring safety into the equation...ever !"

I welcome any thoughts.

Andy.

I disagree with the comments made by your observer. In my opinion in these circumstances, it is healthy to anticipate that the oncoming car may move slightly towards your side of the road to overtake the cyclist. You observed this possibility and anticipated it. The change in speed probably was not necessary but the change in position was good, you were "moving away from the point of danger". Don't worry about how your actions may be interpreted, if the other car reads you position as an invite, that is down to them and it bears no reflection on you.

As long as all else was in place (i.e you checked your nearside mirror and made a smooth, subtle bias to the nearside without veering late or overreacting) then I think your actions should be praised.

Having said that, I always tend to go for the dominant position as has been described laterally in this thread, for the exact same reasons described. By taking an over zealous position you can 1) Put the oncomer off from taking a chance and 2) Leave yourself a safety margin should they make a bad decision.

Either way, it is a very minor point and either way you are not"in the wrong".

[jont]

I came across the idea of "dominating" the road not that long ago, and can sometimes see the benefits. One not so far mentioned is also that if you have a pavement on the nearside, by moving towards it you also reduce the distance to anyone using the pavement as well as having a narrow safety margin if an oncoming car pushed through.

The problem I've found (perhaps when trying to apply it in the wrong situation) is where oncoming traffic has decided they're coming through anyway, and I've had to take avoiding action to stop my wing mirror being smashed by the oncoming car.

[7db]

If they've decided they're coming through anyway, then stopping in the middle of the road is an option - and once they have slowed, doing a dainty slow manouevre to pass each other.

[MGF]

By taking an over zealous position you can 1) Put the oncomer off from taking a chance and 2) Leave yourself a safety margin should they make a bad decision

What is an'over zealous' position James? I don't think anyone is suggesting moving to the crown of the road in an attempt to 'lock down' the opposing vehicle (although this is perfectly acceptable in my view).

What is being suggested is that by moving over to the left from your original position (6 seconds before you are likely to meet the oncoming vehicle) you are effectively 'inviting' him to make the manouvre. This is encouraging danger that you cannot eliminate by moving over to the nearside (only reduce).

If you are going to move to the nearside having decided to sacrifice your nearside safety margin in favour of reducing the potential danger from the offside wouldn't it be better to wait until the potential danger is closer reducing the chance of the manouvre being taken as an invitaion.


You get the best of both worlds then. Reducing the risk of 'invitation', maintaining your safety margin on the nearside as long as possible and anticipating a rash move from the opposing vehicle so as to avoid you having to make an evasive manouvre.

[James]

By taking an over zealous position you can 1) Put the oncomer off from taking a chance and 2) Leave yourself a safety margin should they make a bad decision

What is an'over zealous' position James? I don't think anyone is suggesting moving to the crown of the road in an attempt to 'lock down' the opposing vehicle (although this is perfectly acceptable in my view).

What is being suggested is that by moving over to the left from your original position (6 seconds before you are likely to meet the oncoming vehicle) you are effectively 'inviting' him to make the manouvre. This is encouraging danger that you cannot eliminate by moving over to the nearside (only reduce).

If you are going to move to the nearside having decided to sacrifice your nearside safety margin in favour of reducing the potential danger from the offside wouldn't it be better to wait until the potential danger is closer reducing the chance of the manouvre being taken as an invitaion.


You get the best of both worlds then. Reducing the risk of 'invitation', maintaining your safety margin on the nearside as long as possible and anticipating a rash move from the opposing vehicle so as to avoid you having to make an evasive manouvre.

Thats pretty much it, although the post has deviated on from the OP into pinchpoints. To give you an example, look at the picture.

http://i7.tinypic.com/257o9s2.jpg

It is a SC with 2 lanes in each direction and there is an area of parked cars on either side of the road approaching. They are equally parked on both sides so neither car has priority over the other. There is enough room for both cars to pass "just".

Most non advanced drivers might tale the green line. They probably would not think too much about doors opening, hidden pedestrians or animals, the fact there might not be enough room and the fact there is little safety margin.

I will take the pink line. Notice it is not an exact central line, so I am not hogging the road but I am "suggesting" to the other driver by my position that I am definatley coming through, combined with the respect for their side of the road. Also, this bold positioning may be sufficient to make the other driver wait as it gives the illusion of there being not enough space for both vehicles to pass. However should the other vehicle decide to come through I have left myself a nice safety area ot my nearside to compensate.

All this depends on one thing however, and that is that you have made the right decision in the first place about whether there is sufficient room for both of you to pass and just how much of a squeeze it is going to be. If there are doubts then hold back.

I think I've just reminded myself of the two most important aspects of advanced driving for me, Decision-Making and Confidence. When you add some experience to that equation things get a whole lot smoother no matter what speed you are travelling.

[rlmr]

Having said that, I always tend to go for the dominant position as has been described laterally in this thread, for the exact same reasons described. By taking an over zealous position you can 1) Put the oncomer off from taking a chance and 2) Leave yourself a safety margin should they make a bad decision.

The phrase we used was "present your vehicle boldly but not aggressively" but the concept is the same... I am coming through.

In a similar vein I ride my bike in the offside wheel track of 4-wheeled vehicles and will not ride in the gutter (the statutory DSA position ), which encourages other drivers to squeeze past.