Safety of pull-push steering method

[crr003]

If the IAM dd something like this ( fat chance), it would stop observers setting up "guidelines" as rules cast in stone.

I like this forum as you get all sorts of people on it and the information can be wide ranging - not IAM specific dogma.

But - IAM needs guidelines for associates.

[Nigel]

If the IAM dd something like this ( fat chance), it would stop observers setting up "guidelines" as rules cast in stone.

I like this forum as you get all sorts of people on it and the information can be wide ranging - not IAM specific dogma.

But - IAM needs guidelines for associates.

I'm not sure if I follow you here.

Of course the IAM needs guidelines for associates, but it is being recognised as a bit of a problem that observers are taking these guidelines and turning their own opinions on these guidelines into rules.

A forum such as this one stops that behaviour, as an associate has access to many opinions by asking a question on here.

[crr003]

I like "vonhosen".

If you like him here, you'll love him "here"

[crr003]

Of course the IAM needs guidelines for associates, but it is being recognised as a bit of a problem that observers are taking these guidelines and turning their own opinions on these guidelines into rules.

A forum such as this one stops that behaviour, as an associate has access to many opinions by asking a question on here.

I see this forum as somewhere you can express thoughts you might not be able to on the IAM forum itself (for whatever reason). You get good answers because of the experience and training of some of the members. IAM/RoADA should be utilising this expertise and updating/adding to their documentation IMHO.

IAM observers turning their own opinions into rules needs to be sorted out by proper training and reassessment. I knew an observer who said you should always change down to third gear when you saw a slow on the road. Didn't take long to figure out that couldn't be universally right!

[Nigel]

I like "vonhosen".

If you like him here, you'll love him "here"

I've just posted a question on mobile phones, I think I'm dead, but I felt the need to ask !

[Jon M]

Hi all, thanks for the responses, it's good to hear some sensible opinions - a lot of people on the MR2 owners club sites have some significant track/racing experience, and assume it makes them gods gift to road driving as well...

Getting back to pull-push steering and it's use, the advanced driving community accepts that it is the safest and smoothest steering method, but I expect most people to take an advanced driving course have to spend a lot of time practising to get it fast and smooth, not to mention really slowing down when negotiating tight turns and roundabouts - I know I did! So with that in mind, is it really worthwhile teaching pull-push steering to new drivers? Drivers who will either give it up as soon as they pass and use a variety of one/two/no-handed steering methods, or will try and keep with it only for it to let them down when, as seems to be common, their confidence grows and they start to carry a bit more speed round corners.

Should the DSA look into some alternative, which is perhaps a bit easier to master, and will be a bit more forgiving when the driver finds themselves needing some quick steering?

I don't necessarily think this is a good idea, just a thought that came to me, and I thought it would make for some interesting discussion!

Jon

[vonhosen]

Well the fact the DSA teach it & the Advanced community teach it is for good reason. To be honest neither expect you to be able to steer fast & smooth, just smooth.You shouldn't have to steer fast whatever speed you are doing, but certainly the faster I go the slower I steer as there is less movement involved.

People move away from it for a variety of reasons, but mostly lazyness & that is never a good reason to stop teaching best practice for a purpose. I mean the majority of people's mirror work falls to virtually non existant by virtue of lazyness, but we wouldn't suggest that we should teach that simply because it's what people do when they have passed their test.

[Jon M]

Hi VH,

Good point that as a learner or advanced driver you don't need to steer fast, but from what I've noticed, most regular drivers do have the need to steer quickly because they frequently negotiate tight bends and small roundabouts at higher speeds than would be acceptable as a learner or advanced driver. Not lunatic speeds - I'm not referring exclusively to boy racers - just fast enough that quite a bit of steering is required, enough to make it difficult to accomplish with pull-push, even for somebody reasonably competent with it.

It just seems a waste of time for the ADI's and DSA to teach and examine this method of steering, when the majority (I would think) simply abandon it for something much less safe and controlled. I don't think it's the same as mirror use and other things - that I agree is down to laziness - but with the steering I think people just aren't able to use pull-push because they can't do it fast enough for the way they drive!

[vonhosen]

But my point is, it is not the steering that is the problem, but their speed into hazards. i.e. The way they drive. It's that which needs changing not the steering method.

It doesn't matter if I'm pursuing someone, I still don't steer fast. Because when I am having to do a lot of steering I will not be travelling really quickly. I'll have lost all the speed prior to the hazard.

This isn't something for advanced drivers only. All drivers on public roads should not be carrying too much speed into hazards. It is this precise problem that is the cause of so many collisions - too high an entry speed. How many collisions happen on the exit of the hazard ? Why on earth would the DSA or the advanced driving community teach a method of steering that will simply make people more comfortable carrying excessive speed into a hazard just to apease their desire to drive fast. It will encourage unsafe driving. It's the same with brake gear seperation. A by product of enforcing brake gear seperation, is that it makes it much harder for you to be too hot in. If you can smoothly & unhurriedly get a gear for the speed before entry of the hazard, it creates a massive safety buffer.

[Solo]

Great post 'vonhosen' and absolutely correct. I have only seen some of the replies here but assume that you are still discussing police / emergency vehicle collisions.
You are totally correct that such collisions 'on the road' have nothing to do with pull push steering but a lot to do with carrying too much speed into hazards.
Some drivers get target focused and try their best to arrive at the the scene asap / capture people and thus some drive too fast into hazards.
They are taught to slow down into hazards but when they don't adhere to that teaching things go wrong.

Its a 'fact' that in most pursuits its the people the police pursue usually do the crashing and they are the ones usually using rotational steering.

To end, if racing / rally drivers methods are so good why do they keep crashing on tracks they know so well and/or have pace notes for etc. Is it because their steering technique is incorrect or are going too fast for their ability / conditions / situation?????????????????

[CDAWG]

Hi VH,

Good point that as a learner or advanced driver you don't need to steer fast, but from what I've noticed, most regular drivers do have the need to steer quickly because they frequently negotiate tight bends and small roundabouts at higher speeds than would be acceptable as a learner or advanced driver. Not lunatic speeds - I'm not referring exclusively to boy racers - just fast enough that quite a bit of steering is required, enough to make it difficult to accomplish with pull-push, even for somebody reasonably competent with it.

It just seems a waste of time for the ADI's and DSA to teach and examine this method of steering, when the majority (I would think) simply abandon it for something much less safe and controlled. I don't think it's the same as mirror use and other things - that I agree is down to laziness - but with the steering I think people just aren't able to use pull-push because they can't do it fast enough for the way they drive!

While being an american I cannot comment about roundabouts. There actually is one roundabout in our town in an industrial park near a small airstrip. I never go down there, but I will one day just to check it out and see how well I can get around it. Last I remember though it's not that tight.

As for tight corners I live on narrow street (20 feet wide two way traffic narrow by american standards) with a sharp 90 degree curve. It dead ends and there is a small 180 degree turnaround that requires that the wheel be turned as far as possible to the left (remember we drive on the right). I have used push pull steering for both of these and have never had a problem with it.

The only time I have ever needed to cross my hands was while turning around in a tight driveway. Had to reverse and go forward about 5 times. It was necessary because it needed to be turned as far as possible quickly at a speed of about 2 mph. It was also necessary for safety as it would be foolish to back out on to a busy highway with speeds averaging over 60 mph.

Therefore I can see no way that it would not be possible too go around a bend at a safe speed if required a certain steering technique.

Being an American I don't know anyone other than my self who uses this steering technique. Is push pull only taught by the Brittish, or is it commonly taught in all European countries?

[OneDragons]

The pull is a movement we have far more control over than the push. My biceps are stronger than my triceps. When I pull from the top of the wheel, the more steering I put on the stronger I am getting as I am pulling towards my body.
When I push from the bottom of the wheel the weaker I get with the more steering I apply as my hand moves away from my body.

It is far easier for me to control with strength under pull steering.

Just a picky point, your triceps are usually stronger than your biceps. When pulling down you are using triceps more than biceps and vice versa.

Having said that the conclusions you draw on body mechanics are correct

Other than that again an excellent post

(lets play, spot the biologist )

[vonhosen]

The pull is a movement we have far more control over than the push. My biceps are stronger than my triceps. When I pull from the top of the wheel, the more steering I put on the stronger I am getting as I am pulling towards my body.
When I push from the bottom of the wheel the weaker I get with the more steering I apply as my hand moves away from my body.

It is far easier for me to control with strength under pull steering.

When pulling down you are using triceps more than biceps and vice versa.

(lets play, spot the biologist )

Doesn't that depend if you pull down with a straight arm or bent arm ?

With steering with a bent arm, we are both pulling down & towards locking our elbow close & into oour bodies.

[OneDragons]

The pull is a movement we have far more control over than the push. My biceps are stronger than my triceps. When I pull from the top of the wheel, the more steering I put on the stronger I am getting as I am pulling towards my body.
When I push from the bottom of the wheel the weaker I get with the more steering I apply as my hand moves away from my body.

It is far easier for me to control with strength under pull steering.

When pulling down you are using triceps more than biceps and vice versa.

(lets play, spot the biologist )

Doesn't that depend if you pull down with a straight arm or bent arm ?

With steering with a bent arm, we are both pulling down & towards locking our elbow close & into oour bodies.

Wouldnt that be with a larger wheel which is more horizontal, say a truck?

But the muscles I believe being mainly responsible would be the core body mucles e.g. the lats as well as the shoulder, also gravity is on your side.

If it was simply biceps vs triceps then triceps are stronger which would go against your argument.

But that aside (it is a picky point) I in no way disagree with the reasoning you make in your post.

[stephenperry]

although the push-pull method has stuck with me for 3 years (so much so that it feels alien to do it any other way!) two observations spring to mind:

if involved in a rear wheel skid for whatever reason you don't have necessarily have time to think about which method of steering to use - you use what comes most instinctively, but push-pull (which is acknowledged as being a slower method of steering but offers more control) instead of hand-over-hand (which is faster but more ragged) might not get enough opposite lock on quick enough to avoid a spin or an accident

thoughts?

incidentally, some of japans top "drifters" appear to use a method based on push-pull to no adverse effect