New motorbike test going well then...

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Motorcycle training.

Postby TiJay » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:23 pm


The 205 mph claim is GPS certified on my bike but to be completely honest I had a tailwind and a very slight downhill towards the end of the run.

...on a very long runway at your private airfield, of course :lol:
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Postby Rick999 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:29 pm


Not as long as you may think if my old Blackbird is anything to go by.
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Postby Horse » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:41 pm


jbsportstech wrote: If its the case that 30-44 of high power machines are having the serious crashes then I would suggest limiting them to lower power stuff until they have proved themselves on a lessor machine.


Do you know what experience (or lack of) the crash involved riders have which justifies such as delay? ANd what would you anticipate, time/mileage/age?
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Postby Horse » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:58 pm


Discodriver wrote: Motorcycle training was never taken seriously


That's a choice for each individual instructor to make. If you didn't take someone's training seriously, why not?





I guess that's not what you meant ;)
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Postby Horse » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:52 pm


Discodriver wrote: I still don't think the DSA take it that seriously. You still don't need the type of training an ADI has to go through to become a motorcycle instructor. Maybe things have changed. Some one will let me know, I guess.


Interestingly, their Register of Post-Test instructors (RPMT, to train for the 'Enhanced Rider' level), there is a three-stage entry assessment process of theory, riding, teaching. Sound familiar?

But worth noting that the 'car' test rate hovers around 50% when the bike test is around 75% . . . so which of the two ought to change? ;)
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Postby Gareth » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:12 am


Horse wrote:'car' test rate hovers around 50% when the bike test is around 75% . . . so which of the two ought to change? ;)

Pass rates don't measure fitness for purpose.

What proportion of people die in the first, say, 3 years after passing their respective tests?
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Postby Horse » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:10 pm


Gareth wrote: What proportion of people die in the first, say, 3 years after passing their respective tests?


I don't know. If you could find figures, I'd be interested to see how bikes and cars compare.

Interestingly, a few years ago 'Born Again' riders were being slated as particularly crash-involved - but no-one ever collected the necessary stats. for that to be determined!

Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:'car' test rate hovers around 50% when the bike test is around 75% . . . so which of the two ought to change? ;)

Pass rates don't measure fitness for purpose.


True. But that's a discussion over whether the test is fit for purpose. What those pass rates could be said to show is that bike training for the test is better than the car equivalent.
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Postby Gareth » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:48 pm


Horse wrote:What those pass rates could be said to show is that bike training for the test is better than the car equivalent.

Not necessarily, on at least two counts
- if the bike test is substantially easier then it is likely that the pass rate will be higher,
- if the population taking bike tests is, on average, more engaged then this is likely that the pass rate will be higher.
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Postby Horse » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:43 pm


Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:What those pass rates could be said to show is that bike training for the test is better than the car equivalent.

Not necessarily, on at least two counts
- if the bike test is substantially easier then it is likely that the pass rate will be higher,
- if the population taking bike tests is, on average, more engaged then this is likely that the pass rate will be higher.


OK, taking each in turn:

'Easier' test: Do you think it is? Worth noting that, now, every bike candidate has to take two tests rather than a driver's one, every bike candidate will do an emergency stop and U-turn - while only a third of car drivers will be tested on control exercises, and in terms of mental and physical effort riding a motorcycle is much more difficult (can't lay my hands on exact figures at the moment, but a task analysis done in the USA put riding at requiring 3x the effort of driving).

'Engagement': Are you suggesting that some car test candidates don't actually want to pass? Yes, I'd agree there's more likely to be 'enthusiasm' as people rarely just happen to learn to ride - but it's that same sort of decision-making that means 'safer' people aremore likely to voluntarily take further post-test training.


In terms of reducing fatalities, car occupants in particular, the effectiveness of post-test training pales when compared with figures like this:

“CLUNK CLICK” AA seat belt report shows third of car occupants killed not belted up
11 October 2010

More than one third of car occupants killed in collisions are not wearing seat belts, according to a new report "Clunk Click" published by the AA.

The report shows that seatbelts more than halve the risk of death in a collision.

However, the 7% not wearing seatbelts are overrepresented in fatalities, which suggests that the sort of driver who chooses not to wear a belt is twice as likely to be involved in a crash as someone who does belt up.


Self-selection again.


Abstract
The present study was conducted to assess the predictive validity of the Motorcycle Operator Skill Test (MOST) developed by McPherson and McKnight (1976). It was anticipated that among licensed motorcyclists those scoring higher on this off-road skill test would be less likely to become involved in an accident than motorcyclists scoring lower. A sample of motorcycle operator licence applicants was administered the MOST in addition to the regular licensing test. These motorcyclists were contacted about a year later and queried about their riding experiences including motorcycle accidents. Driver records were also searched for six months after the motorcyclist was licensed. Although bivariate analyses indicated that high scorers on the MOST were more likely to have had an accident than low scorers, multivariate analyses revealed no effect of test performance on subsequent accident involvement. However, accident likelihood was found to decrease as a function of age and increase as a function of vehicle distance travelled (i.e. exposure to risk).



Now this is all going to make me sound very negative about post-test training. Trust me, I'm not! I wouldn't have been involved with training for over 30 years if I really felt it had no benefits :) The problem is quantifying them.
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Postby christopherwk » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:56 pm


Horse wrote:
But worth noting that the 'car' test rate hovers around 50% when the bike test is around 75%


Hmm, maybe, most people tend to take their bike test after doing a car test, and having done one driving test, it is probably easier passing another (riding) one.

On the other hand I find that those who do their bike test first, are often quite keen about bikes from an early age, and usually they've been riding off road beforehand. Therefore, they are already skilled at controlling the bike, and will just need to learn on road observation and awareness.

It doesn't have to apply to bikes with a "motor". If you were into BMX, trials, downhill, cross country etc, when you were a child and continue doing so into your teens as a sport/hobby, then controlling and balancing on a motorbike will become more natural.

I don't think (any - DAS/IAM/RoSPA) bike test is any easier than the car test, it is the reasons above which may explain the higher pass rate.
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Postby GJD » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:52 pm


Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:'car' test rate hovers around 50% when the bike test is around 75% . . . so which of the two ought to change? ;)

Pass rates don't measure fitness for purpose.

What proportion of people die in the first, say, 3 years after passing their respective tests?


What proportion kill somebody else in the first 3 years after passing their respective tests?

If you're going to discuss fitness for purpose, you need to acknowledge that you have a greater capacity to harm others (and to cause more harm to them than to yourself) in a car than on a bike.
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Postby Horse » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:48 pm


GJD wrote:
Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:'car' test rate hovers around 50% when the bike test is around 75% . . . so which of the two ought to change? ;)

Pass rates don't measure fitness for purpose.

What proportion of people die in the first, say, 3 years after passing their respective tests?


What proportion kill somebody else in the first 3 years after passing their respective tests?

If you're going to discuss fitness for purpose, you need to acknowledge that you have a greater capacity to harm others (and to cause more harm to them than to yourself) in a car than on a bike.


Indeed, the 'bus queue' effect: hit a bus queue with a bike, you take a few people out, but hit it with a car . . .

IIRC I heard someone say that the biggest killer of young women is their boyfriends, while driving . . .
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Postby Renny » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:06 pm


It looks like it is all going to change again

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Postby LEARN2RIDE » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:27 pm


IMHO the motorcycle test is nowhere near realistic enough yet to train motorcyclists for the real world conditions they face.
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Postby martine » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:31 pm


LEARN2RIDE wrote:IMHO the motorcycle test is nowhere near realistic enough yet to train motorcyclists for the real world conditions they face.

OK - so what would you change?
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