Bike Vs Car

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Motorcycle training.

Postby Newydd » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:32 pm


Hi, been searching and reading many threads regarding advanced tests on motorcycles and cars, I've yet to find the specific answer so:

After successfully completing the IAM and RoSPA courses on two wheels, what further benefit would expect to gain by completing the same courses with a car?

Cheers
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Postby Horse » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:17 pm


No idea, but I look forward to enjoying constructive replies :)
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Postby brianhaddon » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:47 pm


Horse wrote:No idea, but I look forward to enjoying constructive replies :)

Constructive? drat - I was going to say stability - wheel in each corner! :roll:
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PS Are you actually from Wales Newydd?
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Postby waremark » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:15 pm


Different considerations on positioning, on use of the gears, and on interaction with other road users for starters. Coping with less performance. Same processes of observation, anticipation and planning.
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Postby Newydd » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:20 pm


brianhaddon wrote:PS Are you actually from Wales Newydd?


How do, I sure am!
North Wales
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Postby Newydd » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:31 pm


waremark wrote:Different considerations on positioning, on use of the gears, and on interaction with other road users for starters. Coping with less performance. Same processes of observation, anticipation and planning.


Thanks for the reply it sounds intriguing!
Are you talking about positioning for better view or something else entirely?
Would a systematic approach to the use of gears/brakes be similar regardless of vehicle? (bike or car)

I would imagine the biggest difference would be overtaking, especially staying within the speed limit.

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Postby ROG » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:14 pm


Newydd wrote:After successfully completing the IAM and RoSPA courses on two wheels, what further benefit would expect to gain by completing the same courses with a car?

They are very different in the way that the system is applied in regard to brakes and gears
Gears to slow bikes & brakes to slow cars (in general)
Planning is different in regards to positioning - don't get so much flexibility with a car - something to do with it being a bit wider than a bike - LOL

Observations are generally the same but usually lower in a car so some views restricted

This is the reason that the bike and car SFLs in the IAM are sold as seperate packages whereas going from car to LGV for example is simply a test fee as the car system can be adapted for a larger vehicle
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Postby ExadiNigel » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:18 pm


ROG wrote:
Newydd wrote:After successfully completing the IAM and RoSPA courses on two wheels, what further benefit would expect to gain by completing the same courses with a car?

They are very different in the way that the system is applied in regard to brakes and gears
Gears to slow bikes & brakes to slow cars (in general)


Is changing down and using the gears sequentially to slow you down encouraged on a bike then?

ROG wrote:Planning is different in regards to positioning - don't get so much flexibility with a car - something to do with it being a bit wider than a bike - LOL


Surely teh principle is no different though is it? The width of a vehicle makes no difference to the idea of moving to the left to gain view on a rh bend. Yes a narrower vehicle will could, potentially, move further but the actual principle is the same isn't it?

ROG wrote:Observations are generally the same but usually lower in a car so some views restricted


depends on the car surely? So, once again, the principles are the same.

ROG wrote:This is the reason that the bike and car SFLs in the IAM are sold as seperate packages whereas going from car to LGV for example is simply a test fee as the car system can be adapted for a larger vehicle



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Postby ROG » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:29 pm


adiNigel wrote:Is changing down and using the gears sequentially to slow you down encouraged on a bike then?

From what I have been TOLD - yes

Positioning is very different between bike (from what I'm told) car and truck - there are for instance issues of rear end swing to consider on a truck

Observations are definitely different depending on height of vision
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Postby Newydd » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:34 pm


adiNigel wrote:Is changing down and using the gears sequentially to slow you down encouraged on a bike then?


Depending on the type of bike and engine characteristics, slowing down is all about rolling off the throttle and/or the use of brakes as necessary. Decelerating by banging down through the gears is definitely not encouraged on two wheels.

Although having said that I still overlap braking and down shifting with both bikes and cars :wink:
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Postby Horse » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:44 pm


adiNigel wrote:
ROG wrote:
Newydd wrote:After successfully completing the IAM and RoSPA courses on two wheels, what further benefit would expect to gain by completing the same courses with a car?

They are very different in the way that the system is applied in regard to brakes and gears
Gears to slow bikes & brakes to slow cars (in general)


Is changing down and using the gears sequentially to slow you down encouraged on a bike then?


Not by me, but then I'm not an IAM observer or examiner.


No Brakes?
When you've got 'Drive Yourself . . . ' off to a fine art, build in an additional element of good forward planning. Try to identify hazards (actual or potential danger) earlier so that you don't need to brake, just close the throttle, then arrive at the corner (or other hazard) at the correct speed and ready to to open the throttle.

As before: use the brakes if you have to, remember that 'engine braking' means using the engine to slow you - not the gearbox, only change down when the revs have dropped, then use the throttle to match the revs with your road speed.


IMO, it depends on how much speed you need to lose and how much space is available to achieve it.
Fast > slow, in short space = brakes

However, because of the ergonomics of [most] bikes, it's easy to simultaneously use brakes, throttle, clutch and gears*. Personally, if braking firmly I'll concentrate on the braking then BGOL as I tail off the braking. Also depends, of course, on 'what' you're approaching, fixed or developing/potentially changing.

* Similar to an autobox in a car (and a couple of large bikes and many scooters of varying capacity) where the box does it for you whicle you're braking.
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Postby Zebedee » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:50 pm


Hi there,

I found my riding benefited from advanced driving, particularly because:
- You can discuss situations in-car as they happen.
- Advanced driving teaches you to do a decent 'commentary', which is really valuable for heightening your roadcraft.
- When you learn advanced riding, the instructor can't see everything 100%. They don't have the same view as you. Therefore, you miss some chances to learn. Whereas in the car, the instructor is sat right next to you and gets almost the same view of every situation.
- Advanced car instructors don't have to split their concentration between driving and observing. Whereas bike instructors do.
- My gear changing on the bike improved from advanced car training. This is because the instructor in the car can feel the gear change and I learnt even more smoothness, which applied on the bike too.

Having done car and bike (both IAM and RoSPA in both), I had different experiences from car to bike. Even though I use the System on two and four wheels, it simply feels a very different from one to the other.

Though I found that advanced driving helped my riding, and visa versa.

HTH
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Postby martine » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:58 am


Interesting to read about your experiences...some of the benefits you mentioned I wouldn't have thought of and just goes to show the cross-over in ANY driving I suppose.

So are you going to make any ADUK driving days this summer? No dates have been set yet but keep an eye on the forums - they won't be long coming now the daylight is extending and better weather is on the way.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
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Postby Horse » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:03 pm


Zebedee wrote: - You can discuss situations in-car as they happen.


Mixed blessing, that one.

Do you mean 'as you plan and implement that plan'? If so, then it changes from observation to training/coaching. OK, not a Bad Thing - but as a trainee you can't be expected to listem to an instructor and respond (ie implement) comments while maintaining the same impetus as you could otherwise.

If you mean retrospective, discussing what you've just done, then that, again, is potentially taking your concentration away from the drive.

However, combining the two does mean that the instructor can 'instantly' implement ideas based on what you've just done - but it needs to be clear (to the trainee especiallly) that the dynamic has changed from 'observe' to 'instruct'.

Using bike2bike radios an instructor can do something similar, but I find that anything which requires in-depth discussion must be done at a convenient stop rather than causing a distraction on the move.

Zebedee wrote: - Advanced driving teaches you to do a decent 'commentary', which is really valuable for heightening your roadcraft.
- When you learn advanced riding, the instructor can't see everything 100%. They don't have the same view as you. Therefore, you miss some chances to learn. Whereas in the car, the instructor is sat right next to you and gets almost the same view of every situation.


You might be surprised! Remember that a car instructor is in a fixed position relative to the driver - whereas a bike instructor has freedom to move about. I'll give a commentary based on what a trainee should be able to see ;) For example, I could be looking further ahead - or I could be moving about more on the lane width.

In fact, one of the ways I assess trainees is by whether they're in the bit of road width I want to use; if I have to move off-line then their positioning can't be too bad :)

Zebedee wrote: - Advanced car instructors don't have to split their concentration between driving and observing. Whereas bike instructors do.


Fair point, but see the answer above. Similarly, if my concentration is getting more biased towards 'riding' than onto the trainee, they're probably doing well! [I'll happily tell people when I think they're riding better than me :) ]


Zebedee wrote: - My gear changing on the bike improved from advanced car training. This is because the instructor in the car can feel the gear change and I learnt even more smoothness, which applied on the bike too.


Again, you may be underestimating how much a bike instructor can tell by, for example, how the trainee's bike moves relative to their own. If I'm moving at constant speed, it's fairly obvious when the trainee opens or closes the throttle, or changes gear without rev matching. Same for maintaining the dirve through bends. Also, bikes will noticeably move back/forwards during poor gear changes.

Sometimes it's as important - actually, even more so - to look for the cause rather than the symptom; 'why?' is the rider doing poor gear changes? Are they rushed, poor posture, incorrect control set-up, etc.?
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Postby IVORTHE DRIVER » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:25 pm


Its nice to see drivers and bikers getting along!

I love following a "good" biker as it is so obvious to tell when they are a step up from the average loony on two wheels, the whole attitude of both bike and rider is different, the bike is smooth in and out of corners, its not constantly diving under braking or struggling to keep the front whell down under acceleration, if only more bikers realised that the same principles apply to car and bike, keep it smooth, keep it balanced and good fun is had by all!

Oh and yes, I did ride a bike years ago, loved every minute of it.

Theres room out there for all of us, enjoy it.

Ivor :D
2.5 Million miles of non-advanced but hopefully safe driving, not ready to quit yet
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