Apportion blame for this roundabout crash?

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Motorcycle training.

Postby trashbat » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:20 pm


MGF wrote:We are expected to drive/ride in a manner that allows for other's mistakes.

It is quite common for PI claims to be reduced by 10-20% because the claimant could've mitigated the severity of the accident even where they obviously had priority.

Makes sense.

I am impressed you could negotiate this RAB on a mountain bike at 25mph.

To do that you need a 'racing line' and a significant lean (feels like ~30 degrees, reality unknown) but it's perfectly possible. Faster would be eminently possible too but beyond my own comfort zone and definitely not safe. On this occasion I was doing a moderate speed some way below my limit of control, but a few mph makes a big difference here, so maybe 20mph.

MGF wrote:What is a PTW? powered two wheeler?

Yes - difficult to talk about 'bikes' in this context!
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Postby AnalogueAndy » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:14 pm


I'm at a slight disadvantage as I can't see the images (at work) but can imagine from the descriptions (Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm presuming it's a 30mph limit?)

Glad you and the bike are relatively ok.

Have you got a copy of Cyclecraft?

Accident stats apparently show most collisions between cars and cyclists happen at the 'entry' point (70%). My commute takes me across several and I'm always extremely cautious. Being able to say "I think you'll find I had the right of way" is not much of a consolation when you're led on the road :)

Position: I'd go with Cyclecraft which talks specifically about the advantages of not taking the outermost (left hand) course but rather keeping to the middle of the left hand lane. After that it depends upon speeds and volume of traffic.

Observation: You need to get eye contact with every driver at every entry point and make sure as far as possible that they have seen you before you commit to passing them. If they are approaching the line, not slowing and on a 'collision course' I'd slow and wait to make sure they are going to stop before passing them. This does create an issue though as some will treat that as an invitation to pull-out, even if they have seen you. Which brings me to..

Speed: entry and 'in' the roundabout itself. It's interesting that some consider 25 mph too fast. In lots of circumstances I deliberately set out to carry as much speed as I can through a roundabout, especially if it is 'free and fast flowing'. Taking account of what I said above about observation. It discourages following drivers from 'cutting me up' (ie. overtaking on the roundabout and cutting across my path to reach their exit).

Final point: watch out for diesel spills, especially in the wet.

Oh, and on 'making yourself seen' it can help but I've still had drivers claim "I didn't see you" (meaning I wasn't looking) and I wear a white helmet and hi-viz jacket, have you thought about running a flashing LED light during the day (the one's that MartinE is so keen on!).
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Postby trashbat » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:33 pm


It's a 30mph limit mini-roundabout with my exit at 1 o'clock and the joining road at approximately 9. I expect its small size changes things a little from the scenario you envisaged.

It's interesting what you say about carrying speed - in most circumstances it makes me feel safer but I'm not immediately able to attribute why. Not holding up following traffic is part of it, which in turn allows me to justify (and maintain) primary position. Reducing my exposure to traffic from the right is another - at full speed in this scenario, I could mistakenly assume someone from the right was taking the first exit rather than going straight on and still avoid a near miss.

The 'eye contact' rule is a good one too - I do this when approaching side roads as well as covering the brakes and often slowing slightly until I'm sure.

I actually don't have a copy of Cyclecraft - over time I've read and adopted a lot of the stuff I believe it suggests through various different means.
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Postby jont » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:34 pm


trashbat wrote:It's interesting what you say about carrying speed - in most circumstances it makes me feel safer but I'm not immediately able to attribute why. Not holding up following traffic is part of it, which in turn allows me to justify (and maintain) primary position.

While there's some truth in this, I find the counter problem that motorists expect you (as a cyclist) to be slow moving, so put themselves in positions for overtakes that end up compromising your safety because they suddenly find themselves needing more space/time than if you were a slow moving cyclist. There a plenty of drivers around Bristol that seem to think "cyclist" = "someone I must overtake".
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Postby trashbat » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:45 pm


I experience that too, but fortunately rarely. As an example of 'must overtake', I was once keeping pace at 20mph+ in dense traffic, primary position, and a driver behind me started hooting and shouting with the ambition of overtaking into the complete lack of space between me and the vehicle in front. Curious.
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Postby jont » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:09 pm


trashbat wrote:I experience that too, but fortunately rarely. As an example of 'must overtake', I was once keeping pace at 20mph+ in dense traffic, primary position, and a driver behind me started hooting and shouting with the ambition of overtaking into the complete lack of space between me and the vehicle in front. Curious.

The most entertaining is when they're so busy overtaking you they fail to notice the queue of traffic they are about to plough into while you sail merrily up the cycle lane. The most annoying is when it's a bus that barges past on the run up to a set of red lights and then plonks itself firmly across the cycle lane and in the advanced stop box :evil:
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Postby AnalogueAndy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:29 pm


jont wrote:
trashbat wrote:It's interesting what you say about carrying speed - in most circumstances it makes me feel safer but I'm not immediately able to attribute why. Not holding up following traffic is part of it, which in turn allows me to justify (and maintain) primary position.

While there's some truth in this, I find the counter problem that motorists expect you (as a cyclist) to be slow moving, so put themselves in positions for overtakes that end up compromising your safety because they suddenly find themselves needing more space/time than if you were a slow moving cyclist. There a plenty of drivers around Bristol that seem to think "cyclist" = "someone I must overtake".


You're right unfortunately. There are plenty of YouTube clips. I was recently doing 27mph, keeping up with the traffic very nicely thank you yet the driver behind decided to pull a diabolical overtake in the face of oncoming traffic.. just to join the back of the stationary queue directly ahead of him! At least if you are in primary you are out of the 'door zone' and you have somewhere to move left if (as in this case) someone does attempt an overtake.

Being in primary can appear 'antagonistic' to following drivers, I always endeavour to aid people passing when it's safe and lift right hand off the bars to say 'thanks' for waiting.

Interesting that Cyclecraft and John Franklin have been coming in for some stick recently from the newly formed Cycling Embassy of Great Britain.

At this rate we are going to need a need 'Cycling' Section :lol:
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Postby devonutopia » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:53 pm


As a cyclist I would maybe say 25mph is a bit too quick - only when looking back from the van's P.O.V there only appears to be about 25 to 30 metres visible road to see what is coming? On that basis I think I would be braking to around 5 to 10mph, just in case, then accelerate into the roundabout once all is clear. :)

Oh, and nothing wrong with doing the speed limit. I often cycle to work - about 1 mile and I live about 100 metres above sea-level with work on the seafront. A nice straight bit of downhill road and a bit of legwork in 24th gear and 30mph is relatively easy (and a bit of an adrenaline rush I suppose) but I am always wary it takes me longer to stop. Also at 30mph, cars coming out of side roads might see you, but usually don't have good perception of just how fast i could be going. All these things often combine in me taking a "defensive" line when at speed? Basically keeping distance from the kerb, and parked cars.

I do try and apply a sense of a driver, into my cycling. I think it helps to be on both sides on a regular basis rather than just a motor hating cyclist, or a cyclist hating motorist. :)

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Postby trashbat » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:00 pm


This is mine some time ago, but no change since I don't think:

Image

Fairly sure it costs me more than my Alfa to run :roll:

I did 43mph on it once, on the road. Exciting, but not as 'exciting' as getting airborne on grass (Butser Hill) at 36.

On a faintly related note, booked in for an IAM taster course on Sunday.
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Postby gfoot » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:23 am


Are cycles exempt from the maxim that you ought to be able to stop safely in the distance you can see to be clear and reasonably expect to remain so? Given the reduced braking power, that would mean that you ought to keep your speed down, even if you're physically capable of doing the limit.

It's a long time since I cycled, but I do remember feeling particularly vulnerable to having somebody or something appear in my path, e.g. unexpectedly pulling out from a junction, or a child running out between parked cars.

Perhaps I should read Cyclecraft too!
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Postby ExadiNigel » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:25 pm


gfoot wrote:Are cycles exempt from the maxim that you ought to be able to stop safely in the distance you can see to be clear and reasonably expect to remain so?


Depends on how highly the cyclist values their safety. If personal safety is valued then you should be at such a speed that you can stop comfortably in the distance you can see to be clear.

Applies to ANY road user.
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Postby trashbat » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:40 am


This accident might have saved my life today. Same place, same route. Being familiar with the danger now, I thought it was a bit quick on approach so I slowed down, went wide for a good look into the junction, and what should appear but a ~7 tonne truck. He came through without slowing enough for a proper look, and stopped some way over his line, but by this point I'd braked hard and safely stopped at mine. Would very likely have been nasty if I'd sailed through at 20mph!
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Postby GJD » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:28 pm


trashbat wrote:This accident might have saved my life today. Same place, same route. Being familiar with the danger now, I thought it was a bit quick on approach so I slowed down, went wide for a good look into the junction, and what should appear but a ~7 tonne truck. He came through without slowing enough for a proper look, and stopped some way over his line, but by this point I'd braked hard and safely stopped at mine. Would very likely have been nasty if I'd sailed through at 20mph!


Sounds alarming! Glad it was no worse than that.
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Postby ExadiNigel » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:08 am


Classic case of learning from one's experiences :D
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