ROSPA Test - overtaking

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Motorcycle training.

Postby Mulski » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:37 am


Curious on folks thoughts

Currently undergoing training for my ROSPA advanced test, which apparently now includes the criteria that any overtaking must be completed within the posted speed limit. So for example, when overtaking another vehicle on a NSL posted road, the maximum speed you can be travelling at during the manoeuvre is 60 MPH.

The Police Riders handbook states (Pg 133), "Overtake if the situation is clear, adjusting your speed if necessary. While you are in the offside position you are in a zone of potential danger so move throught it as briskly as possible".

Further, under the 'Acceleration' section it goes on to say under acceleration that, "Adjust your speed to complete the overtaking manoeuvre safely,and to enter the gap you have identified. Where possible, use acceleration sense to adjust your speed, but use the brakes if necessary"

My interpretation of this implies that you should use an appropriately brisk pace, which enables you to complete the overtake safely. I would contend that overtaking another vehicle who is for example doing 50mph in a NSL at a maximum of 60mph, increases your risk factor by a considerable margin, due to the need to check your speed whilst completing the manoeuvre, therefore taking your eyes off the road for evolving hazards ahead. Additionally, the reference to using your brakes if necessary infers that the passing speed would have been significant enough that a throttle roll off would not be sufficient, indicating a higher speed than the posted regulation.

Additionally, the HWC (#163) states, "overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should:
- move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in"

I am trying to understand the basis for ROSPA's and IAM decision to penalise riders who exceed the speed limit when overtaking, as per their assessment criteria covering the test. Obviously, I am not advocating ridiculous speeds, but what would be considered appropriate to the conditions and circumstances to minimise the time the rider is exposed to new evolving hazards whilst overtaking.

Look forward to others comments.

Cheers
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Postby Gareth » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:39 am


My answer from a car driver point of view ...

Mulski wrote:overtaking another vehicle who is for example doing 50mph in a NSL at a maximum of 60mph, increases your risk factor by a considerable margin,

Definitely agree, so you'll only be wanting to do this on a long clear straight.

Mulski wrote:due to the need to check your speed whilst completing the manoeuvre,

Part of 'advanced' is becoming familiar with how different speeds look and feel, so you ought to be able to develop a pretty good idea how it feels at 60 mph. You might need just one glance at the speedo to confirm, maybe making a minor adjustment.

Mulski wrote:what would be considered appropriate to the conditions and circumstances to minimise the time the rider is exposed to new evolving hazards whilst overtaking.

In reverse order to the question, get your observations correct before committing to the overtake -- there should be no new evolving hazards during -- and only overtake when the victim is travelling sufficiently below the limit for you to be able to pass safely and within the speed limit.
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Postby Mulski » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:55 am


Thanks Gareth, however your answers really only repeat the ROSPA / AIM policy, rather than qualify the reason. Neither the Rider Handbook, not the HWC state you SHOULD NOT / MUST NOT exceed the posted speed limit when overtaking; in fact I would counter the wording in both suggests the opposite.

So, my curiosity is whether this policy is based on a particular regulation - which I cannot find reference to - or is it due to an arbitrary decision made by the respective organisations.

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Postby exportmanuk » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:16 am


Hi

It is based on the law. The speed limit is a limit. The police and emergency services are allowed to exceed the speed limit is certain circumstances but civilian drivers have no such dispensation
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Postby driverpete » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:40 am


Absolutely agree. If you can't complete the maneouvre safely within the speed limit then don't do it. The limit is the limit with no dispensation for the likes of us.
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Postby Mulski » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:15 am


Understand the principle, so playing devils advocate, why does the HWC not state you 'MUST NOT exceed the speed limit when overtaking', rather than the wording used - as outlined in my original post?

By the way, I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative, just challenging the 'common perception', given the terminology used in the official publications.

Cheers
Last edited by Mulski on Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gareth » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:30 am


Mulski wrote:why does the HWC state the you MUST NOT exceed the speed limit when overtaking

Possibly because there is an expectation that people will understand that 'legal' in the previous part of the sentence applies throughout rather than just in choosing a location.

What you decide to do when not taking an advanced test is in your own hands, but for the purpose of the test, for the discipline it requires, keeping strictly to within the speed limit is the aim.

I say aim advisedly because if you take a little nibble out of the speed limit here and there and the examiner doesn't notice or privately thinks it was the correct action, the result will most likely be the same.
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Postby brianhaddon » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:14 pm


Mulski wrote:Understand the principle, so playing devils advocate, why does the HWC not state you 'MUST NOT exceed the speed limit when overtaking', rather than the wording used - as outlined in my original post?


Cheers

It doesn't have to. The rules for RoADAR and the IAM are quite clear. It has to be legal. In my copy of the HC rule 103 quite clearly states "you MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and your vehicle......". This is also quite clear - there is no need to state it elsewhere because there are no exemptions. So it does not matter whether you are driving briskly along a country road or passing others you must stay within the limit.
However ...what happens in practice.......

Regards
Brian Haddon
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Postby michael769 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:09 pm


Mulski wrote: why does the HWC not state you 'MUST NOT exceed the speed limit when overtaking',


Because it would be merely repeating the restriction detailed Rules 124 and 125.

I draw your attention the the absence of any mention of an exception for overtaking in either rule 124 or 125, and suggest to you that a reasonable person would understand that to mean that the prohibition on exceeding the limit applies in all circumstances including but not limited to overtaking,
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Postby martine » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:42 pm


Mulski...you imply the IAM and ROSPA have condoned breaking the law in the past...I not aware this is the case. No organisation can publically condone, encourage or even ignore, breaking the law. Doesn't matter what manoeuvre - the HWC is quite simple - don't break the speed limit. What you chose to do when not under test is your decision.

Is there a problem with that?
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Postby fungus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:13 pm


I think others have just about summed up this issue.

I know you are talking motor bikes now, but if you have ever watched Chris Gilberts DVD where he demonstrates overtaking, it is all set up using an ex colleague because most drivers are driving at or above the speed limit making a legal overtake nigh on impossible, and as he no longer had a speed exemption it was the only way he could do it.
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Postby Stephen » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:12 am


No Examiner should be encouraging or allowing any person they take for test to break the speed limit, as this is a no no and I am pretty sure no Examiner worth his salt would allow this to happen especially on test.
What we do when we are on training days with a group is another matter, but even then they know that their is always someone in a group who would be willing to take the Examiner to task if found condoning breaking the law.
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Postby RobC » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:47 am


Firstly I agree that if you have to break the speed limit to overtake you shouldn't be contemplating the manoeuvre in the first place.
On test an examiner whether DSA or IAM/RoSPA will expect you to adhere to the speed limit as indicated on the speedometer, however you may be faulted but would you actually fail a test if you briefly got up to an indicated 64mph in a 60mph zone whilst overtaking? Bear in mind that at an indicated 64mph you may only be travelling at an actual legal 60mph and whilst im not sure about a bike test but in many cars the examiner cant see the speedometer and may well not be able to notice the difference .
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Postby Stephen » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:47 am


Yes,because you go off what is on the speedo not what you think might be 10% +2, also if you have to exceed the speed limit then the overtake was never on in the first place.
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Postby waremark » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:26 am


There may be a number of advanced drivers who when not on test would be happy to go a bit over the indicated speed limit in order to overtake. By operating, as I agree a road safety organisation should, to the parameter that you don't plan an overtake unless it will be safe and worthwhile without going over the indicated limit, you don't see people driving in their natural style to which they are bound to revert - and I think this somewhat reduces the value of preparation for the test. I don't see any better way and agree that strict compliance is appropriate for advanced driving tests.
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