Cycling

[MGF]

Where is the cyclist meant to go when he approaches a queue of traffic? If he stops behind and to the left of the last vehicle in the queue what happens when the next vehicle approaches. Does he stop behind the cyclist and to the right of him?

I doubt it. 99% chance he pulls up alongside him. Once the traffic moves off the cyclist is in the same position as if he had 'undertaken'.

If he moves to the outside of the traffic and overtakes what happens when the traffic moves off. They will want to undertake him (and no doubt will).

Obviously a cyclist should position himself behind or in front of a vehicle indicating left or the first vehicle in the queue.

Once the traffic moves off he allows for anyone in front of him and and anyone behind him allows for him.

As for undertaing in the same lane motorists pass cyclists and other vehicles that have moved over to the right of the lane if there is room between the them and the kerb.

This is acceptable if the traffic to the right is stationary. So why can't a cyclist do it?

[SammyTheSnake]

A chap I know recently had a cycling accident doing this. He was passing a lorry on the kerb side towards a left junction. The lorry flashed to invite another lorry coming the other way to turn right across him, and the turning lorry knocked him down. All three riders and drivers at fault in my opinion.

And a long time ago a motorcycling friend was passing an HGV on the kerb side when it turn left into a side road. Nasty mess (three weeks in hospital).

But it is fine for a cyclist to continue past slow or stopping traffic down the kerb side so long as he is prepared for such hazards at left junctions.

Incidentally, there's a clip on a video my driving instructor lent me that's almost *exactly* this scenario, except that in the clip it's a motorbike with L plates and he didn't actually get hit.

The commentary said all three road users were at fault:
1) Lorry driver for flashing for the car to proceed (couldn't speak for other road users and should expect the car driver to proceed incautiously in response)
2) Car driver for fulfilling those expectations (wasn't paranoid enough to expect the motorcyclist to make a bid for pizzahood)
3) the motorcyclist for filtering down the left at a junction.

I personally would almost never overtake a large vehicle on the left on my motorbike, but if I did, I'd treat the far end of the vehicle somewhat like a junction. i.e. expect other road users to be coming out of the blind spot beyond the lorry and be prepared to stop if they do. Especially if the lorry was stopping at a junction, I'd expect him to be doing something odd like flashing another road user, or possibly turning without having remembered to indicate (or possibly deciding he didn't have to having not seen me - one reason I tend to indicate even when I don't think I need to, especially when the vihicle I'm driving has large blind spots unlike my motorbike :-p)

Cheers & God bless
Sam "SammyTheSnake" Penny

[OneDragons]

Considering this is an 'advanced' driver site I find the attitudes towards cyclists as a little confusing. Surely as an advanced road user you would be aware of other users, what they should and shouldnt be doing and above all be more tollerant of other road users than would be expected of a 'regular' user?

Granted a lot of cyclists out there do stupid things, but then again so do a lot of car users.

[BillZZR600]

Considering this is an 'advanced' driver site I find the attitudes towards cyclists as a little confusing. Surely as an advanced road user you would be aware of other users, what they should and shouldnt be doing and above all be more tollerant of other road users than would be expected of a 'regular' user?

Granted a lot of cyclists out there do stupid things, but then again so do a lot of car users.

And Bikers and Truckers and..........

shame we dont have a noding head smiley to agree with you OneDragons

[Nigel]

Considering this is an 'advanced' driver site I find the attitudes towards cyclists as a little confusing. Surely as an advanced road user you would be aware of other users, what they should and shouldnt be doing and above all be more tollerant of other road users than would be expected of a 'regular' user?

Granted a lot of cyclists out there do stupid things, but then again so do a lot of car users.

There is a vast difference between attitude and actions.

I am an advanced driver, I'm a very high mileage one, and I do my best most of the time to keep to standards, my own vice is speed.....I like it.

Without the skills I've been taught, and my application of them, I'd have splattered many a cyclist by now.

Attitude : I dislike cyclists, period, they are a self congratulating loud mouthed bunch of morons (on the whole), who tend to get in my way.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion ! and being able to pass a few driving tests (with tuition) doesn't remove my ability to think for myself, or make me less likely to express opinions.

[MGF]

There is a vast difference between attitude and actions.

Page 5 of Roadcraft discusses 'How attitude affects good driving'

"Studies have shown that drivers' attituded to other road users, speed and risk taking are a good guide to their likelihood of having an accident....Many drivers become unnecessarily angry when other road users interrrupt their progress"

I am an advanced driver, I'm a very high mileage one, and I do my best most of the time to keep to standards, my own vice is speed.....I like it.

Attitude : I dislike cyclists, period, they are a self congratulating loud mouthed bunch of morons (on the whole), who tend to get in my way.

I suggest the research Roadrraft refers to (and it is unfortunate the authors don't quote their sources) indicates a relationship between attitude and actions.

Of course you may well be the exception to the rule. That is, have an obvious contempt for other road users, claim they get in your way and have a vice for speed yet still your attitude does not affect your effectiveness as an advanced driver.

However, 'OneDragons' can be forgiven,in my view, for making the relationship between attitude and actions as Roadcraft has done the same.

Without the skills I've been taught, and my application of them, I'd have splattered many a cyclist by now.

This is interesting.

Most drivers don't have the skills you have been taught yet how many of them can claim to have 'splattered many a cyclist'. Something you claim you have avoided only because of your skills.

Why has it been necessary for you to apply your skills so often to avoid 'splattering' cyclists when clearly those without these skills are managing to do so anyway?

Nothing wrong with having an opinion ! and being able to pass a few driving tests (with tuition) doesn't remove my ability to think for myself, or make me less likely to express opinions.

Your post appears to be somewhat lacking in thought. For example I am a motorist as well as cyclist as are a good many of cyclists I am sure. Are we a 'self congratulating loud mouthed bunch of morons' when on our bikes but not so when in our cars?

Your obvious bigotry aside Nigel you do raise an interseting point. Can an advanced motorist be so when he has such contempt for other road users?

I for one don't view advanced motoring purely in terms of skills however without observing your driving it is not possible to say whether your attitude compromises your effectiveness as an advanced driver. Statistically however it appears it is likely to do so.

[Nigel]

You make some very good & I'm sure valid points.

However, until cyclists are cracked down upon, and the highway code rules applied to them with the same rigour they are applied to me, my attitude is unlikely to change.

Cyclists are a minority, I tend to have a problem with minorities, as they keep shouting we want this, we want that, etc...they don't want to pay for it of course.

Things may be changing for the better, have you seen the report of the cyclist fined heavily for holding traffic up in an nsl, when there was a cycling lane available for him to use ?

As for attitude, on the whole cyclists have the worst attitude of any non pedestrian road user group, they claim to be so vunerable, then put themselves in positions of great danger, and once they have put themselves in that position, they expect priority over everything else on the road.

Segregation, where possible seems to be the answer, and like in that recent court case, once its there, make them use it.

[Gromit37]

Considering this is an 'advanced' driver site I find the attitudes towards cyclists as a little confusing. Surely as an advanced road user you would be aware of other users, what they should and shouldnt be doing and above all be more tollerant of other road users than would be expected of a 'regular' user?

Granted a lot of cyclists out there do stupid things, but then again so do a lot of car users.

There is a vast difference between attitude and actions.

I am an advanced driver, I'm a very high mileage one, and I do my best most of the time to keep to standards, my own vice is speed.....I like it.

Without the skills I've been taught, and my application of them, I'd have splattered many a cyclist by now.

Attitude : I dislike cyclists, period, they are a self congratulating loud mouthed bunch of morons (on the whole), who tend to get in my way.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion ! and being able to pass a few driving tests (with tuition) doesn't remove my ability to think for myself, or make me less likely to express opinions.

Golly gosh, I had never considered myself to be a loud mouthed, self congratulating moron. Glad you told me. I'll get a label printed up to stick on my panniers. Sorry if I get in your way Nigel, whilst riding to the methods prescribed in 'Cyclecraft', it is most inconsiderate of me. I wish I was such an 'Advanced' thinker as you are.

As for the H/C being applied to cyclists, it would be unwise to criticise when for every cyclist you see breaking the rules, you will see 20 motorists breaking them too, not to mention most of the motorcyclists.

Segregation? Good idea. Cycles pre-date the motor car, so get your car off our roads!

[PeteG]

Segregation? Good idea. Cycles pre-date the motor car, so get your car off our roads!

Can - open. Worms - everywhere.

"Will advanced-driving.co.uk function on my typewriter/ book-quill combination/ stone slab and chisel??"

"Your roads? Start paying road tax then"

And so on.

[Gromit37]

Worms. Yum!

Love 'em in cans or otherwise.

Anyway, according to the government (whom we all believe, dont' we?) our VED does not go to the roads. And my 'Band A' council tax is higher than some peoles 'Band C', thanks to the local Borough and parish councils. So I thought I'd get my money's worth on this enlightened forum, where advanced thinking comes first

On top of that, I was feeling narked, because I'll be spending some of the weekend out on my £1600 recumbent trike, and motorists just get in the way!

[PeteG]

On top of that, I was feeling narked, because I'll be spending some of the weekend out on my £1600 recumbent trike, and motorists just get in the way!

Cycke paths. Only a select few motorists get in the way there.

Please note, as in most of my posts, my tongue is firmly in my cheek.

[AlistairL]

Page 5 of Roadcraft discusses 'How attitude affects good driving'

"Studies have shown that drivers' attituded to other road users, speed and risk taking are a good guide to their likelihood of having an accident....Many drivers become unnecessarily angry when other road users interrrupt their progress"

I think the quote could apply to anyone, for instance I've observed a couple of incidents when progressive cyclists have been obnoxious to pedestrians who just happened to get in their way and the cyclists had to slow down.

Statistically however it appears it is likely to do so.

Like you say earlier MGF, we don't have either the studies or statistics available to refer to. Especially the comparison of cyclists splatted by advanced and non-advanced other road users. This would include pedestrians, equestrians, powered and non powered 2, 3, 4 and further multiple wheelers.

A.

[MGF]

If the quote could apply to anyone, which I agree with, then it must apply to motorists so doesn't have any bearing on the validity of the comment I was making.

As far as statistics are concerned. Roadcraft asserts that there is evidence to show there is a relationship between attitude and accidents.

If the authors of Roadcraft believed it was ok for Advanced motorists to have a 'bad' attitude but not for DSA trained drivers then I am sure they would have said so.

Roadcraft could be wrong. Are you suggesting on this aspect it is and as Advanced Drivers we should treat it with a pinch of salt?

[AlistairL]

If the quote could apply to anyone, which I agree with, then it must apply to motorists so doesn't have any bearing on the validity of the comment I was making.

As far as statistics are concerned. Roadcraft asserts that there is evidence to show there is a relationship between attitude and accidents.

If the authors of Roadcraft believed it was ok for Advanced motorists to have a 'bad' attitude but not for DSA trained drivers then I am sure they would have said so.

Roadcraft could be wrong. Are you suggesting on this aspect it is and as Advanced Drivers we should treat it with a pinch of salt?

Yes, there is a relationship between attitude and accidents. Causality has been demonstrated.

In the motorcycle edition of roadcraft we are reminded that our own actions (even perfectly reasonable for our mode of transport) can make others angry, so we should remember this and "avoid actions that cause unecessary stress".

MGF, how would you deal with the hypothesis that advanced training leads to more frustration as bad riding/driving is more evident to the recipient of the training?

Anyway I'm a bit lost as to which comment of yours we are validating. Is it that Nigel shouldn't call him self advanced if he thinks the way he does?

[rlmr]

In the motorcycle edition of roadcraft we are reminded that our own actions (even perfectly reasonable for our mode of transport) can make others angry, so we should remember this and "avoid actions that cause unnecessary stress".

It all goes back to my often used and misquoted Burns except...

"The gift to see us as others see us."

There is room for us all out there but we have to be attentive to other road users needs and challenges just as they need to be aware of ours.

How often are we (bikers) flashed by oncoming car drivers when we are in the overtaking position yet we are back, safely on our side of the road for some considerable distance before they are level with us. If you are not a biker you may not appreciate the abilities of the machine (and rider). Similarly we must all take time to understand about the other road users.

Oh if only everyone could be a pedestrian; cyclist; biker; driver, trucker...and equestrian.

Rennie