IAM to drop requirement for 'progress'

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Motorcycle training.

Postby triquet » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:54 am


But there can be a level of traffic where attempting to make "progress" becomes stress raising and frankly can cause alarm and distress to other road users. Sometimes it is better to be patient and to recognise that "progress" is not the be all and end all of Advanced Driving.
Jim
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Postby martine » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:26 am


I think you guys are actively agreeing with each other. (that'll never do on an ADUK thread).
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
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Postby akirk » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:30 pm


mefoster wrote:Progress is about movement, not speed

If I can selectively quote you - I like it phrased this way - that works really well

Alasdair
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Postby akirk » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:29 pm


StressedDave wrote:But then I hate rule-based driving. I did once do a 23 car overtake (in one hit) because the idiots were blindly following a Police escort. Twas in a Ford Ka too.


I hope they gave you a cheery wave as you passed the police car :)

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Postby Ancient » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:45 pm


mefoster wrote:It far more about being able to read road and traffic conditions ahead to allow you to take the path of least resistance and keep moving where others get themselves stuck. Progress is about movement, not speed or aggression.

Long before any involvement in AD, I did a stint as a m'cycle courier. I used a CX500 and a Rickman fairing to keep the rain off. I was frequently told by the two-stroke riding crowd that "You can't get through the traffic with that". One day I demonstrated the ability to get to and from a drop-off point faster than the most vocal critic amongst them, as he repeatedly dived for closing gaps and I just waited for the traffic to turn out of my way. Keeping moving often gets you there faster in heavy traffic than striving for every opportunity.
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Postby TripleS » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:12 pm


Gareth wrote:
TripleS wrote:So, a driver who takes and passes an advanced test, ceases to be an advanced driver if he subsequently elects to drive part of the time in a leisurely fashion?

If, by leisurely, you mean the driver isn't paying attention to the road and other road users, isn't trying to be systematic when approaching hazards, isn't smooth and considered in the use of controls, then I'd agree.


No, when I say leisurely, I simply mean driving at a speed appreciably less than the NSL, even if it would be safe and appropriate to drive at the NSL or thereabouts. This doesn't imply any reduction in the level of attention paid to the road and other road users etc. All other elements of the driving may be fully up to 'advanced' standard; it's just that the speed is less than it could be. In situations other than a test, I think one should be free to do that without incurring criticism.
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Postby TripleS » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:17 pm


StressedDave wrote:Personally I think you're all putting the cart before the horse.


Nope, not all of us. :P
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Postby TripleS » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:19 pm


waremark wrote:I cannot reconcile the term Advanced Driver with a 45 mph everywhere bimble. There has to be an answer to the Associate who says ' why would I speed up here when I am soon going to have to slow down again?' My answer is that you must be able to show that you have the skill and judgement to drive safely and smoothly when you are in a hurry.


Absolutely right...in training, or during an advanced test. Maybe not at all other times.
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Postby TripleS » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:24 pm


StressedDave wrote:I did once do a 23 car overtake (in one hit) because the idiots were blindly following a Police escort. Twas in a Ford Ka too.


Oh dear, I now feel so inferior :cry: : my best was only about 11 in one go; and that was in a Pug 406 HDi. 8)
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Postby akirk » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:43 pm


TripleS wrote:
StressedDave wrote:I did once do a 23 car overtake (in one hit) because the idiots were blindly following a Police escort. Twas in a Ford Ka too.


Oh dear, I now feel so inferior :cry: : my best was only about 11 in one go; and that was in a Pug 406 HDi. 8)


you must have longer cars in the queue up North :)

agree that it is okay to drive without losing focus, but without looking for every bit of progress - that is one of the choices an AD driver can make - however for the IAM / RoSPA / etc. - they do need to know that as an advanced driver you could make progress safely efficiently etc. - so to drop that need is to remove one area of AD from drivers doing that training... there is a big difference between training / examining and then eventual driving choices you make...

Alasdair
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Postby WhoseGeneration » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:55 pm


So, any guesses as to when the IAM and BRAKE will amalgamate?
Always a commentary, spoken or not.
Keeps one safe. One hopes.
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Postby Pontoneer » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:57 am


akirk wrote:
Pontoneer wrote:I'm equally content to just bimble along at lower speeds


I am not sure that Bimbling along constitutes AD - or even actively driving :)

Pontoneer wrote:From the above , I would contend that speed does not equal progress , and that going fast does not equal being more advanced .


I think that there is very often a mis-understanding of advanced driving.
It is not about going fast
Making progress is not just about speed

If you are bimbling along you are not actively engaged in driving the car and the situation - AD is about being actively involved, not a passive driver and all too often sitting back and relaxing in a queue of traffic involves switching off and following the herd - that is not AD

AD can involve sitting in a queue and not choosing to pass, but that doesn't mean lack of engagement.
The top level AD is relaxed and calm in whatever move they are taking - whether they are patiently waiting, or actively passing

the problem is that the phrase 'making progress' is often assumed to refer to that boy-racer style driving of sitting on the bumper of the car in front - taking every opportunity of a mm spare to overtake, of seeing the car in front as a target to be hunted down and despatched... that is not AD - the advanced driver sits happily in a queue, but the mind is constantly aware of what is going on - if an opportunity arises they take it, if not then life is good and they carry on - as I was told by a high up coach - the AD drives faster than others, but also drives slower than others and that is key - a lot of people don't understand that in overtaking a string of 8 cars as I did last week on a long open road with no-one else bothering to overtake, I was equally happy a few miles later on to sit at 35 for 2 miles behind a 1931 Model A Ford

It is a total misconception that 'making progress' means driving as fast as you can - it means that you drive to the situation and take opportunities when they present themselves... a simple example:

there is a queue of cars ahead (3 cars) nice long road - do you join it sit back and chill for 15 minutes adding to the queue and now making it longer at 4 cars - or do you pass, keep yourself out of the queue and ensure that it is not so long a queue for others? If you make progress and have the opportunity - pass, if the other two cars behind the slower vehicle had also done the same, then there would be no queue, just one slow car for others to overtake - by not making progress you are building a worse scenario for others... it is not about driving like a nutcase it is about intelligent driving...

so you are right, speed does not equal progress
fast does not equal AD

but progress may require speed at times
AD may involve speed / going fast at times

and AD does mean making progress

Alasdair


Perhaps the use of the word bimble was inappropriate ; while I may opt to take it easy on myself and drive along at a constant speed which does not find me catching up with trucks , buses or caravanners , it does not mean that I am being any less attentive or aware of others around me - I have merely chosen to drop out of the 'race' that so many others seem to turn their morning commutes into .

For me , creating a little bubble of calmness and safety around myself by dropping out of the chaos of tailgaters , undertakers and overtakers by driving in the least used lane strikes me as being more 'advanced' than the rest .
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Postby Pontoneer » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:05 am


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Off topic - can we please consider whether the need exists to quote an entire 50 line post just to reply to a small point within it, often just replying to the other poster saying "I agree". If you need to quote, perhaps consider cutting out just the salient portion which prompts you to reply.

Thanks


The need to quote quite often arises if the post you are replying to is some way back in a thread ( as is this one ) .

Sorry about quoting entire posts , but if posting from my phone , as I am now , then editing text is quite an awkward and time consuming process .
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Postby Pontoneer » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:15 am


Hardly time critical indeed .

However , I , like many others , I imagine , don't live to spend my time posting on web fora , but rather use them to pass little bits of spare time , such as just now when I am on the train , or earlier when I had a period of insomnia , so the posts are either going to be made with whichever device I have to hand ( most often my phone ) or not at all .
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Postby TripleS » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:24 am


Pontoneer wrote:Hardly time critical indeed .

However , I , like many others , I imagine , don't live to spend my time posting on web fora , but rather use them to pass little bits of spare time , such as just now when I am on the train , or earlier when I had a period of insomnia , so the posts are either going to be made with whichever device I have to hand ( most often my phone ) or not at all .


So there, Mark. :P

My mobile phone is quite old and simple, a bit like me really, :roll: so any nonsense I seek to inflict on you will have to come from my computer. The next step therefore is to limit my use of the computer.... :lol:
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