IAM to drop requirement for 'progress'

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Motorcycle training.

Postby Horse » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:55 pm


Shamelessly stolen from Kevin Williams (Survival Skills rider training) who attended and was presenting at yesterday's National Motorcycle Safety Seminar http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/3841.html

. . . a statement made yesterday at the National Motorcycle Safety Seminar by Mark Lewis, the IAM Director of Standards, in the course of his presentation. He said that the IAM "want to get away from the constant emphasis on progress" - he said there was no reason riders could not enjoy the scenery.

https://www.facebook.com/SurvivalSkills
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Postby Horse » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:34 am


Boing, since I'm surprised this hasn't received any comment.
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Postby trashbat » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:34 pm


I don't know whether this is going to apply in the car context, so may be barking at shadows. If it does apply to driving as well as riding, I'll be disappointed, if not entirely surprised.

Progressive driving, and for example a demonstrable competence and willingness to go for overtakes, is to me a very important ingredient in advanced driving. I appreciate that not everyone shares that view in terms of every day driving, but I would expect AD graduates to at least be well versed in it.

I say not surprising because I've developed a distaste for the IAM in recent times, and am currently no longer a member. I haven't completely decided whether this is reasonable or not yet. I would like to be part of and represented by an organisation that respects the effort I put into improving my driving skills, and the motivation for why I did. Part of that for me is safe but progressive driving. It feels to me that the IAM ignores that and is complicit in dumbing down the system to the lowest common denominator, reducing speed limits etc, and in this case devaluing progression. I can see why but to me personally, that's a breach of that relationship, if it ever existed. Like I say, I'm not sure that's fair yet.
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Postby Horse » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:45 pm


Given the source: "a statement made . . . by Mark Lewis, the IAM Director of Standards", I'd expect it to apply equally to cars.
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Postby triquet » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:14 pm


After driving for rather longer than I like to admit, I am a recent convert (?) to the AD lark, via the IAM SFL route, and for a while I was very puzzled by the concept of "progress". To my mind progress simply means going forward in the general direction you intend to go in, rather than going backwards. :mrgreen:

The AD-speak meaning of "progress" is obviously slightly different from plain English and has connotations of urgency and scaring the pants off other road users ( :shock: a bit tongue in cheek that). But the emphasis on "progress" has certainly put off SWMBO from doing SFL ... which is a great shame.
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Postby martine » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:19 pm


Having been part of a 3 day workshop at Mark Lewis' personal invitation (name drop, me?) I can say that nothing has been decided but one of the themes from some of the 30 delegates (a mixture of examiners, observers and members) was to move SfL away from being based on strictly police-style driving. A move away from Roadcraft as the ultimate source of info was also suggested (by the delegates) and discussed.

I think it's a question of emphasis rather then black and white but I think we all appreciated that being able to drive at the speed limit, while maintaining safety, was an important skill.

Mark does seem genuinely interested to:
a) modify the current standards for training and testing and
b) listen to members

It's not going to happen overnight but the discussion has at least started and any move (after nearly 60 years of IAM existence away) from 'Roadcraft' will be amazing/overdue/ridiculous/outrageous (delete as applicable).
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
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Postby jcochrane » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:43 pm


StressedDave wrote:And return... It's not actually a bad thing. Many drives I've received have been spoilt by over-concentration on progress to the detriment of safety, and simply having enough time to process the information coming in.

In any case what IAM groups consider progress and what the Police consider progress are somewhat different so seeking to emulate the rozzers in this regard is foolish.

I'm of like mind to Dave on this. Even before the mention of "progress" most IAM associates make too much progress in the wrong place ie. approaching hazards. I'm constantly advising them to slow down more on the approach to a bend, for example, not just for safety and stopping distance related to vision, but also to give themselves more time to look, assess, make a decision/plan and execute it. This takes time and to achieve this means slowing more.

Getting away from using the word "progress" or "progressive drive" which I suspect to many means overall driving more quickly and replace with "use of speed", or some such phrase, may make more sense.
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Postby MrToad » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:06 pm


martine wrote:Mark does seem genuinely interested to:
a) modify the current standards for training and testing and
b) listen to members


Seems like a good time to say that anyone who can get to Bristol on the 25th is invited to come along and hear Mark Lewis - IAM Director of Standards - speak at the Bristol Group Monthly meeting. Here's your chance to share your opinions with the man himself before a new version of the IAM syllabus (or whatever it becomes) is finalised.

The meeting starts at 7:30pm, and there's more info and directions here.
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Postby WhoseGeneration » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:29 pm


StressedDave wrote:And return... It's not actually a bad thing. Many drives I've received have been spoilt by over-concentration on progress to the detriment of safety, and simply having enough time to process the information coming in.

In any case what IAM groups consider progress and what the Police consider progress are somewhat different so seeking to emulate the rozzers in this regard is foolish.


Except, there was a time in this "Green and pleasant land", when one could do so whilst not trying to "emulate the rozzers", nor, if being sensible, excite those same "rozzers"' attention.
Heyho, as the dumbing down continues, you'll eventually be able to attain an AD qualification so long as you don't text whilst driving.
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Postby Gareth » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:21 am


I see the progress requirement as nothing more than being able to drive safely while feeling a sense of urgency to reach a destination as quickly as possible, within certain constraints. As preparation for the IAM and RoADAR tests, candidates will need to simulate the urgency in order to practice. The constraints they will be working to are that their driving should be safe, legal and smooth.

The common word-picture is that you are taking a woman close to giving birth to a hospital; as quickly as possible since you wouldn't know what to do if she started to give birth in the car, keeping safe and legal as you really really don't want to be stopped by the police as that would delay your journey, and at all times keeping it smooth for consideration of your passengers. There's nothing about emulating the police on a shout here.

Surely this isn't too tall a requirement for the duration of a fairly short test? It demonstrates the application of all the skills required for a basic standard of advanced driving. Agreed, candidates may make mistakes as they learn how to do this, but that's why they are preparing for the test - to learn how to avoid those mistakes.

There's no reason why drivers and riders can't enjoy the scenery when they are not on a test and, preferably, when they are not driving or riding ...
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:40 pm


No such moves coming from RoSPA as yet, so until there are, and maybe even if there are, I shall continue to encourage my associates to make safe progress where possible. Remember, progress doesn't = speed. It consists of making the most of opportunities, selecting lanes, keeping the wheels moving, being in the right gear, and so on. I will also continue to slow them down where they need it, and to get them to drive safely and smoothly. When we get out onto a clear bit of country road, however, I shall expect them to giddy-up and get moving, treating each hazard on its merits.
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Postby jont » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:37 pm


Gareth wrote:There's no reason why drivers and riders can't enjoy the scenery when they are not on a test and, preferably, when they are not driving or riding ...


Indeed. I've never understood why if you want to look at the scenery, you don't just park up (and go for a walk to do so). The idea that you can be sharing your attention between the scenery and the drive seems to run counter to the idea of what an "advanced" driving organisation should be about.

Unless this is a precursor to moving towards even more eco-bollox?
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Postby martine » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:46 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:No such moves coming from RoSPA as yet, so until there are, and maybe even if there are, I shall continue to encourage my associates to make safe progress where possible. Remember, progress doesn't = speed. It consists of making the most of opportunities, selecting lanes, keeping the wheels moving, being in the right gear, and so on. I will also continue to slow them down where they need it, and to get them to drive safely and smoothly. When we get out onto a clear bit of country road, however, I shall expect them to giddy-up and get moving, treating each hazard on its merits.

Exactly this - and that's what was discussed at the Mark Lewis workshop. I think the title of this thread is misleading but only time will tell.
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Postby chosulman » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:49 am


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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:02 am


jont wrote:
Gareth wrote:There's no reason why drivers and riders can't enjoy the scenery when they are not on a test and, preferably, when they are not driving or riding ...


Indeed. I've never understood why if you want to look at the scenery, you don't just park up (and go for a walk to do so). The idea that you can be sharing your attention between the scenery and the drive seems to run counter to the idea of what an "advanced" driving organisation should be about.


Hear, hear! My passengers will often say something like "wow, what a view", to which my invariable reply is along the lines of "I'm sure it is, but I don't have time to look just now".
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