IAM to drop requirement for 'progress'

[akirk]

Alasdair, I'm not sure we do exactly mean the same thing. Firstly I think you are jumping to conclusions re IAM - I don't think there is any move to endorse 45 in a clear 60 limit. Even the L test wouldn't allow that. The issue I think concerns how much emphasis is on the subjective feeling of progress and the rhetoric surrounding it. The word is that, for example, some observers are a bit too insistent on full bore acceleration when it's not really mandated by the situation and is more a matter of individual style - which can be off-putting for some candidates. Yes I enjoy a brisk, even fast drive, but I don't think it has to be fast to be advanced.

I agree - the IAM are not really saying that - but it is possibly a perception formed from these IAM comments - the minute anyone talks about enjoying the view - that is the implication...

but I think we are agreeing on this in that making progress does not always mean 60 in a 60 - but that it is more relevant to driving to the conditions / context which might mean a range of things - i.e. a more intelligent drive... but maybe I misunderstand your thinking?

there is also a big difference between full-bore acceleration and speed - the issue as I see it is that for some 'making progress' means simply covering the ground as fast as possible within speed limits etc. - whereas a more accurate concept is that making progress means maximising space / skills / etc. to drive at an advanced level to make best possible progress within the conditions etc. - it is about choosing lanes wisely at a junction / viewing a roundabout ahead to avoid the 'lets stop, look around and then go' approach many take / overtaking where appropriate / balancing your drive against others on the motorway so that as you come up behind the lorry it moves over having finished its overtake and no longer blocks you - all about intelligent driving - not absolute speed, but all about allowing you to make progress...

Alasdair

[jonquirk]

I think Alasdair summed it up nicely and described a drive that flows. That is my understanding of "progress", not press on regardless but craft a drive that flows smoothly. I am sure we have all been passengers in vehicles where we have thought to ourselves, having read the road ahead "I would have gone then, not stopped."

A driver who hesitates, or stops, more than they go fails to achieve that flow and consequently would take longer to complete the journey as all the little pauses add up and there is the failure to progress.

[revian]

I think the last two posts sum up advanced driving very nicely. I take great pleasure in making a drive "flow".

Agreed... 'flow'. It's the recent improvement in my driving doing RoSPA and more thoughtfulness/driving planning.... And reading this forum.

One of those "I wish I'd kept that" items was a copy of the IAM magazine from about 1990, where one letter write said "I was the advanced driver, I had right of way . . . " when explaining a near miss which was - of course - the other driver's

People write odd things... I did have a circular letter to clergy from a (now dead) bishop who said his clergy should always wear a clerical collar when; ' having intercourse with parishioners'... I tell you no lie!

[TripleS]

People write odd things... I did have a circular letter to clergy from a (now dead) bishop who said his clergy should always wear a clerical collar when; ' having intercourse with parishioners'... I tell you no lie!

I believe it is actually a legitimate use of the word, but I think I would have chosen another one.

[revian]

People write odd things... I did have a circular letter to clergy from a (now dead) bishop who said his clergy should always wear a clerical collar when; ' having intercourse with parishioners'... I tell you no lie!

I believe it is actually a legitimate use of the word, but I think I would have chosen another one.

It's legitimate alright... Maybe he was worried about illegitimate?

[Pontoneer]

Sorry, but there is a huge section of the Great British Public who are quite happy to trundle along at 45 in a 60NSL. It is reality of life. These people are not necessarily driving badly: it is just that they don't have any sense of urgency. They are not being obstructive, they are just going about their business going from A to B in their Transport Modules.

Today I had need to get to Newbury from Wantage. The A34 had, as usual, gone completely tits up, so I came over the downs on the B-whatever. It was a really pleasant drive with bits of 50 and quite a bit of 60NSL, and I could open up and enjoy the drive. But for a lot of people this isn't an option: they are just plodding along doing their thing.

Relax and enjoy your driving when you can, and don't get too frustrated by the plodders, horseboxes, agricultural vehicles that occasionally slow you up.

I've raised this topic in the past and been 'pooh-poohed' for it before . Besides the fact that the IAM have consistently stated that speed limits are 'Limits not Targets' for the 30+ years I've been involved in AD , and probably longer , things change over time and traffic density/road population is one of them in my driving lifetime ; the cost of fuel is another .

My contention was , and remains , that emergency response drivers do indeed sometimes have to drive as fast as possible commensurate with safety , but Joe Public does not ; just because JP doesn't travel at the same speeds should not make his driving any less 'advanced' , and the imperative for speed that has always been present in civilian AD is , IMHO , somewhat misplaced .

While once it was commonplace to drive on near empty roads and maintain the NSL without difficulty or danger , nowadays many roads are much busier and congested such that it can be more trouble than it is worth to do other than just 'go with the flow' : on my daily commute , the first 10 miles or so are along the A737 before it becomes a dual carriageway ; this road is normally busy with traffic in both directions , usually moving at 40-50 mph , and sometimes less if the local farmer has decided to take his tractor out ( which he frequently does at peak times and thinks nothing of driving for several miles at 20-30 mph without pulling in and causing miles long tailbacks ! ) . While there are occasional safe opportunities for overtakes , these will only move you a place or two up the queue and probably won't even save you one minute before you reach the dual carriageway . My assessment , therefore , is that such overtakes just aren't worth it and the benefit does not merit the effort or additional fuel used ; occasionally , you might also encounter the 'self appointed road police' type who will block an overtake or attempt to accelerate and close up the gap in front if you go for it - so there can be the odd element of danger .

I also seem to have mellowed with age and like a stress free time : while I can still easily maintain NSL where safe and convenient to do so , I'm equally content to just bimble along at lower speeds , particularly on my morning commute where I get lane 1 almost to myself as I leave plenty of time to get to work , trundle along at 50 mph and watch all the heart attack candidates fight it out in lanes 2 and 3 vying for position as they fly past - I don't think that implies a lower standard of driving on my part , in fact I would contend quite the opposite as I am avoiding hazardous situations and lowering my own stress levels ; I also find that I frequently catch up and even overtake those who flew past me earlier as I reach the queuing traffic around Govan on the M8 approach to central Glasgow , and I continue to pass many of them as I carry along at reduced speed , still in lane 1 , so my 'progress' is better than theirs .

My daily commute also includes sections of the M8 and M74 with 50 and 60 mph speed limits and it seems that I am the only person who obeys them !

From the above , I would contend that speed does not equal progress , and that going fast does not equal being more advanced .

[akirk]

I'm equally content to just bimble along at lower speeds

I am not sure that Bimbling along constitutes AD - or even actively driving

From the above , I would contend that speed does not equal progress , and that going fast does not equal being more advanced .

I think that there is very often a mis-understanding of advanced driving.
It is not about going fast
Making progress is not just about speed

If you are bimbling along you are not actively engaged in driving the car and the situation - AD is about being actively involved, not a passive driver and all too often sitting back and relaxing in a queue of traffic involves switching off and following the herd - that is not AD

AD can involve sitting in a queue and not choosing to pass, but that doesn't mean lack of engagement.
The top level AD is relaxed and calm in whatever move they are taking - whether they are patiently waiting, or actively passing

the problem is that the phrase 'making progress' is often assumed to refer to that boy-racer style driving of sitting on the bumper of the car in front - taking every opportunity of a mm spare to overtake, of seeing the car in front as a target to be hunted down and despatched... that is not AD - the advanced driver sits happily in a queue, but the mind is constantly aware of what is going on - if an opportunity arises they take it, if not then life is good and they carry on - as I was told by a high up coach - the AD drives faster than others, but also drives slower than others and that is key - a lot of people don't understand that in overtaking a string of 8 cars as I did last week on a long open road with no-one else bothering to overtake, I was equally happy a few miles later on to sit at 35 for 2 miles behind a 1931 Model A Ford

It is a total misconception that 'making progress' means driving as fast as you can - it means that you drive to the situation and take opportunities when they present themselves... a simple example:

there is a queue of cars ahead (3 cars) nice long road - do you join it sit back and chill for 15 minutes adding to the queue and now making it longer at 4 cars - or do you pass, keep yourself out of the queue and ensure that it is not so long a queue for others? If you make progress and have the opportunity - pass, if the other two cars behind the slower vehicle had also done the same, then there would be no queue, just one slow car for others to overtake - by not making progress you are building a worse scenario for others... it is not about driving like a nutcase it is about intelligent driving...

so you are right, speed does not equal progress
fast does not equal AD

but progress may require speed at times
AD may involve speed / going fast at times

and AD does mean making progress

Alasdair

[triquet]

But what about Advanced Bimbling (AB)?

[jcochrane]

I'm equally content to just bimble along at lower speeds

I am not sure that Bimbling along constitutes AD - or even actively driving

From the above , I would contend that speed does not equal progress , and that going fast does not equal being more advanced .

I think that there is very often a mis-understanding of advanced driving.
It is not about going fast
Making progress is not just about speed

If you are bimbling along you are not actively engaged in driving the car and the situation - AD is about being actively involved, not a passive driver and all too often sitting back and relaxing in a queue of traffic involves switching off and following the herd - that is not AD

AD can involve sitting in a queue and not choosing to pass, but that doesn't mean lack of engagement.
The top level AD is relaxed and calm in whatever move they are taking - whether they are patiently waiting, or actively passing

the problem is that the phrase 'making progress' is often assumed to refer to that boy-racer style driving of sitting on the bumper of the car in front - taking every opportunity of a mm spare to overtake, of seeing the car in front as a target to be hunted down and despatched... that is not AD - the advanced driver sits happily in a queue, but the mind is constantly aware of what is going on - if an opportunity arises they take it, if not then life is good and they carry on - as I was told by a high up coach - the AD drives faster than others, but also drives slower than others and that is key - a lot of people don't understand that in overtaking a string of 8 cars as I did last week on a long open road with no-one else bothering to overtake, I was equally happy a few miles later on to sit at 35 for 2 miles behind a 1931 Model A Ford

It is a total misconception that 'making progress' means driving as fast as you can - it means that you drive to the situation and take opportunities when they present themselves... a simple example:

there is a queue of cars ahead (3 cars) nice long road - do you join it sit back and chill for 15 minutes adding to the queue and now making it longer at 4 cars - or do you pass, keep yourself out of the queue and ensure that it is not so long a queue for others? If you make progress and have the opportunity - pass, if the other two cars behind the slower vehicle had also done the same, then there would be no queue, just one slow car for others to overtake - by not making progress you are building a worse scenario for others... it is not about driving like a nutcase it is about intelligent driving...

so you are right, speed does not equal progress
fast does not equal AD

but progress may require speed at times
AD may involve speed / going fast at times

and AD does mean making progress

Alasdair

Good response.

If advanced driving is the standard and manner set by IAM or RoADA to gain a pass then any driving that does not meet that requirement is not advanced as recognised by those bodies.

Surely the hope is that anyone passing one of those tests will always strive to drive that way all the time. Otherwise there is no point in having taken that test except as a trophy gathering exercise. The IAM market their tests as Skill for Life, Something they hope will permanently change a way a person drives. Not something they discard or switch on and off on a whim.

[TripleS]

So, a driver who takes and passes an advanced test, ceases to be an advanced driver if he subsequently elects to drive part of the time in a leisurely fashion?

Does that same driver lose his advanced status only during the periods in which he chooses to drive in a fairly leisurely manner, or does he lose it permanently until such time as he takes and passes another advanced test?

[triquet]

I would contend that one can have an Advanced Bimble. Here in Crowded Occupied North Berkshire it is quite relaxing to take an informed Bimble. Keep well back from the 45 mph parades, not worrying about the overtaking opportunity that you know darn well will never come. Observe, watch, learn, practice positioning, be nice to cyclists and horsey people.

One is still making "progress" in the sense that you are going forwards and not backwards. Obviously attempting too much "brisk acceleration" and all that will only raise the blood pressure and probably confuse Joe Public. Thank you, sir! Have a nice day!

[jcochrane]

So, a driver who takes and passes an advanced test, ceases to be an advanced driver if he subsequently elects to drive part of the time in a leisurely fashion?

Does that same driver lose his advanced status only during the periods in which he chooses to drive in a fairly leisurely manner, or does he lose it permanently until such time as he takes and passes another advanced test?

If a driver elects to a drive in a manner that is not to the standards of the advanced test then that drive is clearly not advanced as defined by that testing body.
If a driver holds an advanced driving qualification they may call themselves advanced even if the drive they deliver at some time is not up to that standard. Conversely if someone holds an advanced driving certificate it does not make every one of their drives advanced by virtue of holding that title.

[jcochrane]

I would contend that one can have an Advanced Bimble. Here in Crowded Occupied North Berkshire it is quite relaxing to take an informed Bimble. Keep well back from the 45 mph parades, not worrying about the overtaking opportunity that you know darn well will never come. Observe, watch, learn, practice positioning, be nice to cyclists and horsey people.

One is still making "progress" in the sense that you are going forwards and not backwards. Obviously attempting too much "brisk acceleration" and all that will only raise the blood pressure and probably confuse Joe Public. Thank you, sir! Have a nice day!

If I may use your post...
An example of advanced driving as you might deliver, given the conditions prevailing, on an advanced test.

[Gareth]

So, a driver who takes and passes an advanced test, ceases to be an advanced driver if he subsequently elects to drive part of the time in a leisurely fashion?

If, by leisurely, you mean the driver isn't paying attention to the road and other road users, isn't trying to be systematic when approaching hazards, isn't smooth and considered in the use of controls, then I'd agree.

[akirk]

An interesting example played out today on the same stretch of road on which I overtook a string of cars last week... as I approached that straight there are some tight bends, then some gradual bends - I had already carried out an overtake earlier and had held back while cars filtered off into a local attraction - a white astra van ahead of me proceeded to carry out three overtakes on blind corners, and the wrong way further unsighting himself
we then came to the straight - he was already ahead of the traffic, but could have passed it there - from further back I passed several cars, but approaching the last van it was too close to a corner / drop to 50mph and approaching temporary traffic lights, so I went back into 'bimble mode' The Astra van overtook again as cars were braking for the temporary lights... then beyond them he passed three tractors each towing a long flatbed hay trailer, and two cars - approaching a blind bend and unsighted - I stayed back...

I had probably 2 x the power of his car, but would not have taken any of those overtakes, he was phenomenally lucky as it is a road on which motorbikes regularly do 100+ it was a busy day and he had all the overtakes with no traffic approaching around the corner...

was he making progress? was I making progress? ultimately he got ahead of me by a long way but he risked death 5 times in 2 miles, I still made considerable progress, had times of sitting back and times of passing... hopefully mine was more AD - it is not all about speed at all costs

Alasdair