Post test training consultation. The results are now out

[T.C]

You may recall that quite some time ago it was announced that the DSA were looking to introduce a register of post test or advanced instructors. Well, the consultation was completed some time ago and the decision has been made with regards to its implimentation.

The response to the consultation has now been produced, it is now just a case of waiting for it to come into force.

http://www.dsa.gov.uk/Documents/consult ... clysts.pdf

It seems like a case of the DSA feathering its own nest again, and if they police the advanced register like they do the CBT and DAS register it will be wide open for abuse, and I think many senior and established instructors will decide that now is the time to retire. Something I am now considering

Bit of a long read, but you may find it interesting.

[rlmr]

Looks like a revenue generating exercise... again

Rennie

[Advanced Roadcraft]

Looks like a revenue generating exercise... again

Rennie

That, and the dead hand of officialdom stifling all enthusiasm from the voluntary/private sectors.

Just what does the DSA know about advanced riding FFS?

Or advanced driving, for that matter?

Bloody government, eh? It'll be like having the goal-oriented management of the NHS, coupled with the dynamism of the Post Office!

[Nigel]

I've spoken to my local group motorcycle guy about this, to see how it affects the IAM bike lads.

I've read him the replies etc, as he is very familiar with the document, and he was surprised by the replies.

Apparently the IAM lads are already recognised, ROSPA aren't (I'm not sure what the reasoning behind that is)

I can't tempt him onto here, but he doesn't seem to think this is any problem to us.

[rlmr]

Apparently the IAM lads are already recognised, ROSPA aren't (I'm not sure what the reasoning behind that is)

Correct. IAM is (as far as I am aware) the only Advanced Driving organisation which is DSA accreditted. Lot of work (politics etc.) between IAM & DSA... think its proving beneficial. Look at it this way, its often better to jump and have some control over the landing, rather than being pushed. Consequently whilst things may not be perfect things are moving in a direction which could be beneficial to both.

Rennie

[Advanced Roadcraft]

I've spoken to my local group motorcycle guy about this, to see how it affects the IAM bike lads.

I've read him the replies etc, as he is very familiar with the document, and he was surprised by the replies.

Apparently the IAM lads are already recognised, ROSPA aren't (I'm not sure what the reasoning behind that is)

I can't tempt him onto here, but he doesn't seem to think this is any problem to us.

WARNING...LONG AND RANT MODE ON

Symbiosis

If I were advising the DSA I'd have told them to bend over backwards to get the IAM first 'cos they are the biggest, the most 'establishment', the longest-established, the best known, the most 'amenable', the most basic and the least threatening of advanced training providers...and one of the few (two?) that cater for most types of road vehicles.

And if I were the IAM's marketing consultant I'd have sold my corporate soul to be first DSA recognised provider in order to have that Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval and 'prove' that we were the biggest, the oldest, the best-recognised, most accessible...and most obviously desirable government partner...and therefore yours too, Mr Fleet Manager.

A true marriage of convenience. Now the DSA has (the big) one it can pick off the rest of the PTW advanced training market one-by-one in its own time at its own pace.

It will go the same way as advanced training in the car market has. The DSA's creeping expanding assertion of its own interpretation (which no training company to my knowledge was prepared to put its head over the parapet and challenge) that off-road 4x4 days, advanced tuition, race track schools, skid pan training sessions (even go-kart coaching for kids, if rumour is to be believed) etbloodycetera were the 'giving of driving instruction' 'under the Act' and therfore needed (by law) to be run by ADIs.

IAM 'Observers' (what a pathetic weasel word that is) seemed somehow to be exempt. Oh, 'Not doing it for the money', you say? More sophistry: punter pays IAM £85 for Skills for Life; IAM passes a bit to the local group and an 'Observer' from that group then trains the 'Associate', free at the point of service delivery. Note how cleverly none of the punter's money transfers directly to the 'Observer'; most sticks in Head Office coffers. (And, BTW, what contribution did it ever make to road safety allow any Tom, Dick or Harry to give tuition to any other T, D or H...but to permit only ADIs to do it for money?)

How, pray, is this different from Client pays Company X £85; Company X commingles this with its other income and uses said income to defray all its business direct and indirect costs - among which is a salary paid to the 'Trainer'? No direct fiscal connection between Punter and Client at all...smoke and mirrors!

But nobody (including me, to my shame) ever challenged it. I had a little fantasy sometimes of going down to the local cop shop with a client in tow and getting him to write us (the limited company, that was) the cheque for Advanced Driving Instruction right there in front of the duty sergeant and asking to be charged. 'Look, officer, I'm an Advanced Driving Whore - I'm doing it for money!'

But I didn't; I just couldn't be bothered. I focussed on advanced bike training instead...now that's going to be centralised and regulated and strangled and reduced to the lowest common denominator as well.

Its enough to make you weep.

[rlmr]

But I didn't; I just couldn't be bothered. I focused on advanced bike training instead...now that's going to be centralised and regulated and strangled and reduced to the lowest common denominator as well.

To be quite honest I do not actually see this will happen... unless we all roll over and allow it. We keep the standards up and others will follow. There are actually a small band of folk in the DSA who ARE good advanced drivers and do know about Advanced Driving. It will take time to percolate through to the grass routes, but with our help....

Rennie

[Advanced Roadcraft]

But I didn't; I just couldn't be bothered. I focused on advanced bike training instead...now that's going to be centralised and regulated and strangled and reduced to the lowest common denominator as well.

To be quite honest I do not actually see this will happen... unless we all roll over and allow it. We keep the standards up and others will follow. There are actually a small band of folk in the DSA who ARE good advanced drivers and do know about Advanced Driving. It will take time to percolate through to the grass routes, but with our help....

Rennie

Rennie:

Yes, I know DSA staffers who are great ADs and all round good eggs. It's the corporate aspiration to rule the riding/driving instructional world from cradle to grave and the 'dumb down' culture I don't trust, not the individuals within it.

The IAM rolling over will IMHO mean, in the fullness of time, a universal rollover.

I sincerely hope that in five years time I'll be posting, "You were right; I was wrong"!

Best, B

[rlmr]

Yes, I know DSA staffers who are great ADs and all round good eggs. It's the corporate aspiration to rule the riding/driving instructional world from cradle to grave and the 'dumb down' culture I don't trust, not the individuals within it.

Think you will find DSA were told to find a place in life by a higher power

The IAM rolling over will IMHO mean, in the fullness of time, a universal rollover.

I respect your views, but perhaps I am privy to information which allows me to take a more up-beat stance?

All in all it will ultimately come down to individuals to fight their corner and stand up for what we believe in.

Rennie

[Nigel]

I realise I'm not as well informed as some of you, but I have a question, which may seem dim, but please humour me, as I like to know something of what is happening.

Firstly, I am an observer for the IAM ( I don't like the word either, but I also don't like the term "advanced driver/rider")

I observe for what I think are the right reasons, I was knocked over by what I was taught by my observer, experienced first hand how it improved my driving, my outlook, my safety, and made me feel a little more in control of things around me by using observation and keeping myself away from conflicts.

I like to give free assessments & guidance to anyone who is experiencing any kind of problem wth their driving (I'm being prevented from doing this by my group at present through sheer bloody minded politics, but I'm on the committe, and chipping away to get it back again)

I don't really care if they join or not, if they do its the icing on the cake, if they don't I still may have made a difference to them, and it costs no one anything except a little petrol.

Those above me seem to think I have some limited talent of understanding the system, being able to drive to it, and to be able to pass this system onto others who wish to learn.

So the question...why does advanced roadcraft think the IAM has rolled over somehow to allow me in my own free time, with no financial reward, to "observe" for others benefit ?

[Advanced Roadcraft]

I realise I'm not as well informed as some of you, but I have a question, which may seem dim, but please humour me, as I like to know something of what is happening.

Firstly, I am an observer for the IAM ( I don't like the word either, but I also don't like the term "advanced driver/rider")

I observe for what I think are the right reasons, I was knocked over by what I was taught by my observer, experienced first hand how it improved my driving, my outlook, my safety, and made me feel a little more in control of things around me by using observation and keeping myself away from conflicts.

I like to give free assessments & guidance to anyone who is experiencing any kind of problem wth their driving (I'm being prevented from doing this by my group at present through sheer bloody minded politics, but I'm on the committe, and chipping away to get it back again)

I don't really care if they join or not, if they do its the icing on the cake, if they don't I still may have made a difference to them, and it costs no one anything except a little petrol.

Those above me seem to think I have some limited talent of understanding the system, being able to drive to it, and to be able to pass this system onto others who wish to learn.

So the question...why does advanced roadcraft think the IAM has rolled over somehow to allow me in my own free time, with no financial reward, to "observe" for others benefit ?

Nigel: I think the answer to your question lies within your own post:

"I'm being prevented from doing this by my group at present through sheer bloody minded politics"

More generally, I consider that by inviting DSA 'supervision' of its standards the IAM has accepted the thin end of a potentially very long wedge (and one which will be inserted in a very uncomfortable place!).

It surely won't take long for the public view (fostered by Government money in ads and PR) to be that advanced riding instruction 'recognised' by the DSA is inherently superior to that which is not.

Next step: perception that non DSA 'approved' training is of low value. Further down the line all other training bodies/individuals feel the need to be DSA certified. (Some succeed, some fail.)

Ultimately only those on the DSA approved list will survive and Instructors (whatever they choose to call themselves) will only be able to operate legally if they are on a similar register to that which controls the providers of CBT and DAS instruction...surely that intention is obvious?

'For the avoidance of doubt' (as my ex-wife, the lawyer) would say, I have nothing against IAM local groups or Observers - quite the reverse, in fact. (I was, myself a Senior Observer for bikes a while back). I admire their dedication to providing advanced tuition for little or no reward to a wide group of people.

[Nigel]

The sheer bloody minded politics has nothing to do with the DSA, or even at this present time ithe the IAM, who can appear to be more than a little greedy to the uniformed eye (like mine!), for example trying to charge £25 for an assessment drive, of which the IAM get £20 , whilst using free labour to actually do the drive.

The actual problem is how the groups are run, there used to be senior observers, called seniors, who ran a particular area, controlled their area, passed cansidates onto observers, did progress and pre-test checks etc etc...they were in charge.

Things have changed somewhat, groups are now run by a committee, we have Ac's who are normaly senior observers, but I'm not sure this is an actual requirement, who do what the old seniors did, except that senior observers like myself who are not AC's also carry out progress and pre test checks.

Our AC's do not hold committe status, although they have been invited to do so, but have declined (seems beneath them).

In spite of this they wish to try and control what the group do, some of them think our actual "job" is just to teach advanced driving to those that have crossed the IAM's palm with silver, and they have refused to do free assessmant drives, or to administer these drives, they have also sought to block anyone who is interested in doing them (like me) from administering them by refusing access to observers.

I have a lot of support within the group for what I'm trying to achieve, but I'm being controlled, very wisely, by another committe member, as it looks like I may already be partially responsible for one ac resigning, possibly two.

I have a very military outlook on things, like thats your job, get on with it, don't worry about what others are doing, this doesn't seem to go well with volunteers who think they are gods gift to advanced driving.

It all boils down to my thoughts that anything I do in this line may help, others think this isn't the case.

I would even like to offer my time to older people who would benefit from a bit of re-assessment, even this has been denied me by the same people. Not every pensioner is rich, so not every pensioner can afford a weeks pension on a driving course, these people have had little or no tuition since they started driving, and even if you don't actually get them to test standard, you can make a great difference to their quality of life and others safety by helping them.

I'm working quite hard on this, next meetings in January, I can't understand why people are so selfish, and if questioned resign !

I can't do any of this without the IAM status, as thats what few qualifications I have are, DSA approved IAM senior observer, so I ask you again...how are the IAM rolling over by trying to allow people to help others ?

[rlmr]

I can't do any of this without the IAM status, as thats what few qualifications I have are, DSA approved IAM senior observer, so I ask you again...how are the IAM rolling over by trying to allow people to help others ?

As a Senior Observer you must have high standards and at last these standards are being recognised outwith the IAM circles . Without the Senior Observers working with Group Observers Advanced Motoring would fade away. Sadly many "professional" driving schools offer advanced training but in reality many are not fit to lace a Senior Observer's boots.

Rennie

Note: there should be a number of good ADI's who are very good Advanced Drivers... I have only met a few so my comments are personal, based on my experience and not intended to belittle the ADI's who generally do a grand job teaching learner to drive / pass their DSA test.

[Advanced Roadcraft]

Nigel...you can do what you like as a private individual!

Hey, at the moment, anyone can call themselves an Advanced Motorcycle Riding Instructor - you don't even need to have a motorcycle licence.

Best, B

[Nigel]

So from that comment, I'm thinking the DSA thing is good, yet you clearly don't like it.

I'm not argueing with you, I'm just not understanding why you dislkie about what the DSA are doing.